legality of a roll cage in a street car?

[bmoha2]

To take the idea to the next stage. I was never thinking of having a front loop to be able to smash my head into it. I was thinking of having the traditional loop with a cross bar and the agled sidebars back to the rear strut towers and then sidebars forward to the front footwells. The car would be for two passengers max. No rear seats and no rear passengers. I want to be able to run performance seats with harnesses. I am so sick of the stock seats and stock seatbelt. I intend to race this car next year in scca events and madison sports car club events. I want a crossbar on the main loop to be able to have the correct positioning for harnesses. I'm not into compressing my spinal column. I do want to tie the upper part of the main loop into the upper pillars. Probably at where the upper seatbolt mouning bolt is. I might think of also doing a low crossbar for rigidity. I'd like to possibly put in a triangulated front strut tower brace that ties back to the firewall. I think the rear strut tower brace with the addition of the roll cage should be stiff enough. I might even think about putting in a brace that reinforces the rear spare tire well to additionally brace the section between the rear upper a? arms.

 

[bmoha2]

so what about this... instead of a interior rollcage, exterior bracing? I have been seeing alot of japanese road racing cars setup with exterior bracing to add strength and rigidity. I have seen bars that bolt to the underside of the car from the front side jacking point to the rear jacking point. I could see how that might stiffen things up a bit. Plus I have seen all sorts of additional braces etc for subaru wrx etc. Subframe braces all sorts of stuff. The mag I was reading the other day had subframe braces and trangulated strut tower braces and braces that go from the front side jacking point to the rear jacking point. They also used a support bar that goes behind the drivers head and bolts to the upper seatbolt mounts and a lower rear fottwell brace that went from driver side to passenger side down low. maybe these kinds of things could be used to really increase the rigidity of the chassis without any of the headaches of having a full rollcage? I mean if there is one complaint I have about our cars is that they are very flexible. I took a EVO8 for a spin and pretty much was blown away by how rigid and solid it felt. Ah I'll probably get over it but I got to admit I liked it. My dad used to race rally cars on and off road. He had a Datsun 510 that was his mechanical engineering thesis. It was a long time ago and I don't remeber all the details but it had a nasty motor swap that was producing about 300 flywheel horsepower all motor normally aspirated and everything on it for drivetrain and suspension was customer fabbed by him. I have no idea what tranny it had in it but it was connected to a transfer case that split the power front and rear with fully independent suspension front and rear with customer diffs and customer driveshafts. So basically it was full time four wheel drive with disc brakes on all four corners. It had a complete multipoint rollcage. He used to race it way back in the day in ccscc events. (Champaign county sports car club) It's an Illinois thing. That car had absolutely no flex of any kind! It was pretty awesome and pretty well known in that area of Illinois. The car was even seam stitch welded. Now yes of course that would be total overkill for my car but I still can't help but feel envious.

 

[jtmcinder]

I was never thinking of having a front loop to be able to smash my head into it. I was thinking of having the traditional loop with a cross bar and the agled sidebars back to the rear strut towers and then sidebars forward to the front footwells.

Then you should have started a thread about driving on the street with a drag-style roll bar, instead of a thread about roll cages.

- Jtoby

 

[bmoha2]

I didn't get what you meant right at first but now I get it. I see the differentiation between a roll cage and a drag style roll bar.

 

[Flash]

This comes up every few months, it's pretty simple once you think about it. If you're in an accident and your head smashes into the steel bar(padded or not) it's going to cause serious damage. Roll cages are for race cars end of story.

The Porsche GT3 RS comes with a roll bar that is directly behind your head, and it's safe.

 

[link16]

The Porsche GT3 RS comes with a roll bar that is directly behind your head, and it's safe.

So does the Mazda Miata...

 

[DSM90AWD]

Funny that the new issue of Motor Trend featured two street-legal cars in which helmets were highly recommended (no windshields):

$88K Arial Atom

$300K Callaway Speedster

 

[KiNg MaRtY]

I drove around in my 89 Mazda MX-6 GT Turbo 4WS with a rollbar for 2years without any problems.

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[1LE]

Whatever you do, if you decide to put in a roll bad and a seat, DO NOT take the harness straps and mount them straight down to the floor. They should at least go over some cross bar on the rollcage behind the seat. The reason being, if they're mounted straight to the floor, then in an accident the force exerted on you by the harnesses will be pulling straight down (seatbelts pull you straight back), which will compress your spine. Worst case scenario = you ending up in a wheelchair. Not really something you wanna take a risk on though. Whatever you decide on, just be safe.

Same goes for harnesses without a full cage... You get stuck in an upright position and roof comes down and compresses your spine...

Oh, BTW, VERY few harnesses are street legal... Have to meet some obscure DOT FVSS regulation of some sort. Only ones I know of off the top of my head that are legal are the Schroth 2" wide (normal race harness is 3" wide) with push-button activation (race harness would be latch-link or camlock) and ASM loop (race harnesses don't have that because you're supposed to have a cage).

That said, unless you're an idiot on the street it's terribly unlikely that a cop is going to give you a ticket for being safer than stock...

 

[Defiant]

Still and all, though, the value of a good safety helmet should still be considered, if only for its jaunty air.

 

[bmoha2]

funny as hell

 

[FFTec - jerry]

I had a roll cage in two of my cars before. I got pulled over once for it, because the officer said it was an obstruction of vision, but I did not get the ticket. But he did give me a ticket for the safety harness for some reason. I ended up bolting in the factory seat belt, bolted the buckle back in, got the ticket signed off, no problem. I really do think it's just a matter of where you live, what kind of cage you have done, and how discrete you make it. My last cage was welded along the a pillars between the windshield and the doors, but did not protrude with chamfers and gussets, so they were not that obvious. I had the back windows tinted so it's harder to see from behind or along side of the car, and left the front windows without tint. Never got pulled over...

Jerry

 

[Marc91GSX]

Still and all, though, the value of a good safety helmet should still be considered, if only for its jaunty air.

Aww, how sweet! Defiant posted his picture on here.










J/K Defiant

 

[Defiant]

Yeah. Happy Thanksgiving, sparky.

 

[turboAWDfanatic]

Also put some padding around your roll cage, its not going to hurt any more than if you hit your head on the windshield.

Oh, yes it will. The glass will give, a steel bar won't. I saw a nasty accident where the driver's head went partway through the windshield. The glass didn't shatter, but it broke up and flexed out. The (drunk) driver ended up being okay (it didn't even knock him out). If that were a steel bar in front of his head I think it would have been a different story. Most portions of a car's factory interior that our heads are likely to hit in an accident have some give. A cage bar isn't going anywhere...your skull is what's going to give. Padding will help a little, but as people have stated already cages are *DESIGNED* with helmets in mind.

The Porsche GT3 RS comes with a roll bar that is directly behind your head, and it's safe.

This discussion is about cages, not bars. Your head is protected from hitting bars by the seat. The cages in question have bars that tie the roll bar to the windshield frame which places a bar right next to your head.

I'd say that the drag style bar is a great choice, especially if you have a racing seat that will keep you from sliding into the sidebar. Rollover safety, side impact safety, increased rigidity, all without the dangers that a bar presents.

BTW, here's a link to RRE's info on Shroth harnesses. As I understand it they are all street legal. In addition to that, they're safer than other *4* point harnesses b/c of their ASM (anti-submarine) technology. If you go check out the rules for Redline Time Attack series, Scroth is the only brand of 4 point harnesses that they allow b/c of ASM.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

Oh, yes it will. The glass will give, a steel bar won't. I saw a nasty accident where the driver's head went partway through the windshield. The glass didn't shatter, but it broke up and flexed out. The (drunk) driver ended up being okay (it didn't even knock him out). If that were a steel bar in front of his head I think it would have been a different story. Most portions of a car's factory interior that our heads are likely to hit in an accident have some give. A cage bar isn't going anywhere...your skull is what's going to give. Padding will help a little, but as people have stated already cages are *DESIGNED* with helmets in mind.

yeah, i agree about a roll cage should really not be in a street car. Now a 4 point roll bar that does not come in front of the front seats should be alright in a street car. Unless your not wearing your seat belt, you should really not come close to hitting your head.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Let's separate the two things:

A roll bar, (AKA 4 point, simple 6 point, drag style roll bar, etc) is fine for driving for having in a street car. The main hoop will be far enough away from your head that it should not cause any problems. You should also use the stock 3 point harness while driving on the street due to the fact that it's much more likely that you'll wear the stock 3 point harness correctly, versus a 4+ pt harness. This is due to the fact that a 4+ pt harness has to be fully tightened to be of any good where as 3 points let you change radio stations and such.


A ROLL CAGE is a different story. the term cage means that you have bars going down your A pillars and a halo bar(Windshield, door, main hoop, door) This is NOT okay to use on the street because if you got into a side impact, your head would indeed hit the bar above your door. crack, you're dead. 3point harnesses also don't hold you to the seat well enough to prevent this 3-4 inches of upward and sideways movement that would leave you dead. SO, full cages should be used with both helmets, and full harnesses.

Also, Don't use pipe insulation foam for your roll cage. The only thing that is good for is insulating pipes, and soaking up blood if used on a roll cage. Buy the SFI rated stuff. At LEAST buy the super high density fire proof stuff if you absolutely can't afford the SFI approved stuff.

Who the eff cares about what's legal or not, do what is safe for you. I think that might be more important.

 

[spinninfwdlaser]

Many factory performance cars come with cages. The GT3RS, many of the RUF cars, the Ferrari GTO (new version) and the F40 I beleive had a cage. Not exactly super street friendly, but I would not imagine too much of a problem. Sure, your head could hit the back bar, but there are more positives then negatives in my book.

 

[turboAWDfanatic]

Many factory performance cars come with cages. The GT3RS, many of the RUF cars, the Ferrari GTO (new version) and the F40 I beleive had a cage. Not exactly super street friendly, but I would not imagine too much of a problem. Sure, your head could hit the back bar, but there are more positives then negatives in my book.

I couldn't find good references for the Ferraris, but as for the GT3RS the "cage" is all behind the driver, like an intricate roll bar. We're questioning the safety of cages where the bars extend forward past the front seats and down the A pillar. A bar behind would provide plenty of rollover protection without putting your skull in immediate danger of being shattered.

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[DSM90AWD]

I couldn't find good references for the Ferraris, but as for the GT3RS the "cage" is all behind the driver, like an intricate roll bar. We're questioning the safety of cages where the bars extend forward past the front seats and down the A pillar. A bar behind would provide plenty of rollover protection without putting your skull in immediate danger of being shattered

That cage (and likely the Ferarri's) is also not NHRA legal for running sub-11.50 ETs.

I would "guess" that those cars rollbars were designed to be legal for SCCA / NASA competition though

 

[blcknspo0ln]

That cage (and likely the Ferarri's) is also not NHRA legal for running sub-11.50 ETs.

Forgive the unfamiliarity on the subject, but if you're sub 11.5, what is street legal? A 4 point roll bar welded to the frame?

 

[DSMpwr25]

Im welding in a 10 point roll cage this sunday in my DSM. Its a weekend street car, and plan on taking to every autox and circuit event I can I bought the cage for the safety part of it, now im not saying nothing can happen to me even tho I have it, But I have a better chance with it then with out it in a wreck. I say theres really no point in having one unless your serious about your driving.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

Im welding in a 10 point roll cage this sunday in my DSM. Its a weekend street car, and plan on taking to every autox and circuit event I can I bought the cage for the safety part of it, now im not saying nothing can happen to me even tho I have it, But I have a better chance with it then with out it in a wreck. I say theres really no point in having one unless your serious about your driving.

Are you doing this yourself? I want to put in a cage for my dsm but I dont know of any good shops around the virginia area for this, except for piper motorsports which is insanely expensive.

 

[spinninfwdlaser]

My car will have a cage, because I have rolled a car before (mechanical error) and trust me..... I would have liked the cage. Not to mention, who wants to make 1 fast pass, and get kicked out.
You cannot work out a compromise for everything. With a cage, you stand a chance your head will hit. I am a firm beleiver that when it is your time to go..... There is not a thing you can do about it. Simple as that.

 

[bmoha2]

I think I have been hanging onto the idea of still being able to truck the kids around in the Talon. Most of the time I am in the car I am by myself anyway. I will probably just go with a simple six point setup, delete the rear seats. My idea specifically would be if the six point should be tied into the upper part of the car where the seatbelt shoulder pivot is. It would seem to be a way to make the car complete with roll bar/not complete car rigid as all hell...