Just stopped "starting"

[GODD]

-New to posting, be gentle
-Been researching the past few days in the forums, tried a few hints, but before I just jumped out and started purchasing new parts blindly I was hoping for a few suggestions on my modes of thinking

BACKGROUND
=========
-95 GSX - Purchased in late January 2010 from original owner. Car maintenance up the wazoo and well kept. Owner stated that if it sits for a few weeks not driven the battery goes down, haven't let it sit THAT long but never had an issue. 2 alarms in this car, stock and after market Alpine, no clue why. So when you use the key in door it uses stock, remote uses Alpine.

-Couple months back my radar detector, that monitors the battery voltage, periodically would say "battery low", show ranges from 9.x to 11.x in volts and shut itself off in power mode. Unplug, plug it back in, it will last for a bit then do it all over. Learned to live with it no problem.

-Never had a problem starting the car, nothing that I could say I have noticed something was going out or anything. Drove down to the bank ATM, turned off car, used ATM, got back in and "nothing".

-All dash lights, stereo, alarm everything works great and doesn't just stop or anything. Had my father bring his car down with jumper cables, but the car wouldn't jump start at all. So I put it in neutral, rolled it back and push started it with no problem. When I got back to the house, pulled in garage, turned it off, and it restarted immediately again by key. Turned it off again and it wont start at all. Been sitting there now since last week and will not start.

-At a vacation house, kind of stuck and limited to my resources (slow internet too ). So I removed the battery, hooked it up to a charger and it shows that it is charged just fine. So just for peace of mind I put in another battery I know works because it's new (marine battery from my boat) and still will not start.

-When I say it won't start, here is what it does: Key inserted, everything chimes like normal, everything turns on like normal, but when I turn the key all I get is a single "click". Reading on the forums I removed the center console and the passenger side kick panel and located the starter relay (which is where the "click" is coming from).

-disconnected the clutch started switch to see if that was maybe the issue but that didn't do anything either.

-checked all the battery cables for corrosion and none visible. Shook them all around just to make sure since I cant see inside of the casings itself and still nothing.

-I keep reading about people bypssing the starter relay but I figured that since I have disabled the CSS there wouldnt be a need, or would there?

-So I'm down to this, since I'm not that techie on electrical I can only think of replacing these components: CSS, starter relay and if neither of those then the starter itself. Am I correct on assuming that those would be the parts to get the thing started? Also if I replace the starter I see "standard" starters and "performance" starters, does it really matter what "kind" of starter I get besides just the one made for the car?

-I am stuck 2.5 hours away from where I live, still have a few days here and would greatly appreciate any advice on what I should do. I will follow up on everything you tell me to do, including pictures if need be and let you know exactly what is going on as I try what you suggest.

-Thanks again

G

 

[black_gst]

well if is not the starter solinoid it may have something to do with the alarm.

i would replace the starter... another way to check to see if its the starter is, when i wont start smack the starter with a pipe and if it starts the the starter

 

[GODD]

Is there a way to test what you are asking without having to rip the starter out and use a thick gauge wire to a battery as other posts have described? Don't want to have to remove it if it's not the problem, just making sure that the path I am going for: CSS, starter relay, starter is the right one or am i missing a simple test in between. As for the removal of the alarm, would it be safe that just by disconnecting the alrm from the battery that this will remove the alrm out of the equation? Was just curious to if like a "kill" switch is in effect and by disconnecting it from the battery would stop the alarm from functioning period? I'm assuming your "smack the starter" with a pipe is a joke, but as for loose wires etc, I have already checked

-Headed out right now to disconnect the alarm from the battery and see if that makes any difference.

Thanks,
G

Ok disconnected the alarm from the battery and of course the whole car shuts down although its still connected. Didnt really want to get involved with tearing the whole alarm out just for the fact that it has so many little things that shut things off. So i'll keep searching the forums more and see if there is anything that I have missed besides going out and replacing the parts blindly. Hopefully someone is able to send me some more "to-do" stuff before I decide to head into town.

Thanks,
G

 

[Black'95]

Sounds like a starter with a dead spot in it. I think if the alarm were preventing the thing from starting, you wouldn't be able to pop start it, either. But it depends how the alarm works. And, no, he wasn't kidding about whacking the starter. What happens is part of the coil/winding in the starter motor can burn up or wear out. If/when this part is at the right spot when you go to start the car, nothing happens, just like you describe. Hitting it with something can sometimes move the winding a bit, and get it to start. Try tapping on it while a buddy tries to start the car.

 

[black_gst]

^what he said. and go ahead and check thing in the order you said

 

[DSM1G90]

..bet your battery connections are not tight and have some corrosion on it. Take the connectors off, clean the posts and clean the connectors to shiny lead and put the connectors on the battery and get them on super tight.

and make sure that the wires on the connectors are clean and tight as well ..

 

[GODD]

Well I'm still determined to figure this out and fix this on my own. I have done all you have asked, I had previously cleaned the battery connections with this nice brush tool I have, both the posts and the cable ends to make sure they were nice and shiny. Every day go out there, open doors and everything works great. Alarm turns on and off, stereo works etc... Now I have been using my radar to tell me what the voltages were when I turn the ignition on and of course it always reads in the very low 11's 11.x... Thursday last week, just was looking around and decided to turn the key on and watch the radar detector. It said 13.8 volts and I was able to start it. Since the car hadne been driven for awhile I decided to let it idle for awhile then drove it about 1 mile and back. Pulled in the garage, shut it down and it instantly started again. Did this 3-4 times no problems. Waited maybe an hour, went back out and voltage was low again and it has been sitting there ever since now without being able to start again. Now I have no problems wiht taking it into a shop and having them diagnose it but I dont want them just starting at the most expensive part and replacing each one until they get it to start. I also have no problems with replacing parts on my car but I just want to make sure that I am replacing the most relevant part and not doing blind replacements. Now the strange part is that my radar detector just stopped working today and wont even turn on. Anything plugged into the cigarette lighter wont work. Fuse under dash is just fine and I'm not wondering what is hooking in with that which may be part of this whole problem. I will go back out and disconnect the battery, clean both ends off really well again and check the post here for any more advice with the results of this doing anything.

Thanks,
G

Ok battery cables once again all cleaned off along with the posts on the battery nice and shiny. Still nothing and the cigarette lighter still wont function anymore. Guess I will start looking for an actual performance shop here in Bend, OR. and see if the can maybe come out and take a look at it since the only person available all the way over here is my 75 year old father who couldn't push start this if he wanted to.

Ok, just keeping everyone up-to-date. I think after I get through this I will become the master at troubleshooting this problem, hopefully be able to save some people a lot of time by doing what I'm doing.

-Please, if you are scanning through this because I put too much detailed information in, look towards the bottom I will actually have a couple questions on the next steps that I am going to do and need some advice on.

-Anyways, I was back on to the theory of it being the alarm. Yes it does kind of make sense that if it was the alarm then I wouldn't be able to push start it. But I got to thinking; if I'm able to bypass the starter at any point, why wouldn't I be able to bypass the starter even if the alarm has cut it off?

-So when I purchased the car, the people I got it from were great and gave me about a 3" stack of maintenance they had done on the car, very regular oil changes etc, and manuals for things that have been added to it. I located the alarm manual and it's an Apline. Wasn't sure which model since multiple were on the cover of the manual so I opened up that dash and found the brain: it's an Alpine SEC-100S.

-Read through it, and found that it does have a section for "starter disable". So I did a little research on this and found that other people have had the problem with the alarm preventing their car from starting. Anyways, I also found the wiring/install diagrams and located the wire, orange/black that is used for the starter disable function. Diagram shows it running into the "starter cut relay box" which I was assuming that this was a part from the alarm that was installed but it looks like it has factory wires going into it so I'm a little confused on it being alarm specific or not. The starter cut relay box on the alpine diagram shows what looks like 3 main large gauged wires going from the car into it (red/white for an open connection, red/yellow for a closed connection, and red that says "to key", and then the orange/black wire(starter cut output) coming from the brain). Then on the other side it has a yellow going to "ignition" on the car and a yellow going to "ignition" on the brain. So, I traced the orange/black down and it was cut off not being used and the only one left was the yellow going to the brain, so I cut it but that still didn't allow the car to start. Buttoned everything back up nice and neat just like it was from the professional install and have now ruled out the alarm. I also just went through the manual, made sure that it wasn't stuck in any modes like valet etc and alarm seems to be working just fine. Even set it off and disarmed it to make sure that there were no hidden states that it could have been in. I found the actual owners manual(which I have in hand but wanted a reference in case I needed it later when I didnt have the manual) and the fully diagramed install guide if anyone wanted the link to them just ask, wasn't sure if it was appropriate to put links up or not.

-So I think I have safely ruled out battery(holds a charge, operates everything just fine, and have cleaned all connections to nice and shiny as told to do so), the CSS since I had just simply disconnected it(currently connected back up) and the alarm. Now all I have left are to determine if it's the starter relay or the starter.

-Would it just be easier to replace the starter relay or is there an actual way to test it? I think it's a relatively cheap part, so maybe replacing it all together would be beneficial.

-So if replacing the relay doesn't do anything, although the relay does click one time everytime I turn the key(which is showing me that it's reaching the relay but unsure if that's a good thing that it's clicking or a bad thing telling me that it's not going beyond that point), then it looks like the final option is to replace the starter. Now not sure how many of you have actually located the starter on a 95 gsx but I tell ya, that is NOT an easy spot to work in. I don't have a lift and will be doing it from top side, but since it is on the top portion anyhow it seems to be a more doable spot.

-Ok, heading out down to the garage to see if it decided to start today, brb...

-Car still not starting, for some reason cigarette lighter still not working either. So I guess I'm going to go get another starter relay and replace that. Will write back as soon as I get that part done.

-G

 

[GODD]

UPDATE
=====

So with all the troubleshooting I had done, I had basically given up. So I decided to take a good size 1" craftsman ratchet, and within the gaps from the top of the engine, whack the starter quite a few times HARD. Car started right up and continues to start. So with that being done, I am asking.... safe to assume the starter is toast? I will run down tomorrow and pick up another starter and replace it, so here is my question:

Any advice on a way to make it simple on replacing the starter from the top side? If I remove the battery I have ample amount of room to get to it from the side, minus the heater hoses being in the way, but I will work around those as opposed to move them out of the way. Any advice would be appreciated.

Also during the process, like I had said, I also some how managed to make my cigarette lighter not function anymore without playing with any of the wires. Nothing that plugs into it will work, and the main fuse under driverside dash if ok and I even replaced it to be sure. Couldnt really find a diagram of it in my Haynes manual, so if anyone has a spot that I may have missed checking that would be helpful also.

Will keep you posted on the after effects of replacing the starter.

Thanks in advance,
G

 

[muddfisher85]

yea the starter is toast mine kept doing that to me untill I got a new one Now I have no issues.

 

[tmota503]

i think this is wats happening witgh mine... gonna go pick her up from the parking lot were i had to leave her and hopefully replace it 2moro.