Is it time for an FMIC or will I be ok if I just get an UICP

[donniekak]

What i'm trying to get across to people is that the most accepted, or expensive route isn't always the fastest. I have had tons of awd turbo mitsu's, and built and tuned even more for other people. The first things to take in mind are budget, and goals. Having e-85 readily available makes for a wider varity of legitimate builds for a given budget. Given the choice between an expensive, but excellent front mount kit, or a evo3, injectors, pump, and chip for e-85, the e-85 setup will be faster anyday than a 14b on pump through whatever intercooler setup. Believe me i had a galant vr4 with an ets race kit, it helps a lot, especially when pushing 60 lbs/min at 38 psi. But the most effective mod, cost wise, to a stock car, is a minor turbo upgrade and e-85 conversion. I have countless times invested less than $4-5,000 in a car, including buying it, and ran 11's at the track. Some people would rather spend 3x that to run 12's, that is their choice. I go to the track all the time and see people with phenominal builds that are turds at the track. Brand name parts do not make a fast car, setup and tuning do.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

Well, the biggest problem on my part is that there is not a gas station within 100 miles from where I live that sells E85

The temp outside when I did the pulls was about 70º.

I have been looking into getting an FMIC, but since I am tight on cash, I need a budget setup that will work for awhile.

Another question is... My goal is 400hp. Is this possible with running 93 octane with the ethanol mix that comes standard from just about any gas station around? I am pretty sure 560's will not get me there, but I have heard a few people state they have been able to run 12's at the track with the exact same injectors. I can't get out of the 16's

 

[dsm-onster]

Hard pipes don't remedy knock.

Better charge cooling does. Better tune. (no high timing advance from safc/maft). Colder intake temps. Lower boost at the same power, or more flow.

Between your proposed choices, the FMIC is the best option to actually solving your problem, short of dropping the boost and accepting a lesser result in performance. Another option is running water/meth injection with the stock ic and piping.

OR running a more expensive tuning solution like ECMLink, or an eprom, where you can get your timing advance DOWN. 1G timing maps are HELL with pumpgas and stock charge cooling. You probably saw less knock when adding fuel back with the safc because you also put the ecu at a lower series of timing cells, not because of dumping fuel. Rich knock could happen just as easy, just not in every case.

What i'm trying to get across to people is that the most accepted, or expensive route isn't always the fastest. I have had tons of awd turbo mitsu's, and built and tuned even more for other people. The first things to take in mind are budget, and goals. Having e-85 readily available makes for a wider varity of legitimate builds for a given budget. Given the choice between an expensive, but excellent front mount kit, or a evo3, injectors, pump, and chip for e-85, the e-85 setup will be faster anyday than a 14b on pump through whatever intercooler setup. Believe me i had a galant vr4 with an ets race kit, it helps a lot, especially when pushing 60 lbs/min at 38 psi. But the most effective mod, cost wise, to a stock car, is a minor turbo upgrade and e-85 conversion. I have countless times invested less than $4-5,000 in a car, including buying it, and ran 11's at the track. Some people would rather spend 3x that to run 12's, that is their choice. I go to the track all the time and see people with phenominal builds that are turds at the track. Brand name parts do not make a fast car, setup and tuning do.

^^^^AMEN!!!

If you actually get a decent core, pressure drop is minimal. This is why the big guys go to Garrett cores. They cool like MAD and have minimal pressure drop.




That car had no intercooler. He was only able to do this because he was running E85 AND a large amount of meth.

Thats the point. It's not a bandaid. It's a VERY successful method. Corky is not the brightest nor the most successful. He just wrote the most.

Scenerio: You run your ETS intercooler and I'll run my ebay intercooler and water/meth injection (both totalling 50% of your charge cooling); each on pumpgas. Result: Whatever your charge cooling can do mine can do with a proper nozzle size, infact far lower temps typically. My pressure drop is 1 psi at 30psi boost. My light boost (before WI cuts on) manifold temps are awesome, since the huge ebay fmic is plenty for it. And I'm a nozzle away from the neccesary charge cooling for whatever horsepower I want. Never again needing to upgrade more than $10 worth for a new nozzle. You'll need a new core at least. The kicker: I have $400 leftover for cams or SMIM upgrade that lowers required boost for the same power, which gives better results when hampered by knock happy pumpgas. My total investment in my dollars to your dollars thus flows WAY more .

The biggest competitor to higher tech intercoolers is not ebay coolers, it's actually better technology. Tech that's about as old and perfected as turbocharging itself.

 

[donniekak]

Well, the biggest problem on my part is that there is not a gas station within 100 miles from where I live that sells E85

The temp outside when I did the pulls was about 70º.

I have been looking into getting an FMIC, but since I am tight on cash, I need a budget setup that will work for awhile.

Another question is... My goal is 400hp. Is this possible with running 93 octane with the ethanol mix that comes standard from just about any gas station around? I am pretty sure 560's will not get me there, but I have heard a few people state they have been able to run 12's at the track with the exact same injectors. I can't get out of the 16's

Sorry for the thread going all over the place, but to directly answer you. Different piping is not going to help very much. The limit of the stock side mount and pumpgas is pretty constant, regardless of the rest of the setup. A hard pipe, and meth will allow you to run more boost than any front mount and pumpgas. Go to the track nearest you. Wait for a straight meth car to run. Feel the intake manifold after the run, it's cold, like frosty cold. Now if you plan on moving past a td05 frame turbo a larger intercooler and piping setup will pay off, flow, and cooling wise. But for anything 45 lbs/min and under i firmly believe a stock setup + e-85, or meth will be able to yield more power, especially with a td05 turbine causing massive exhaust gas reversion, requiring high octane and very cool intake charge to be effective. Now if you have the money for a front mount and e-85, or meth, of course it will make more power, but for the small budget, nothing beats alcohol. On my stock setup and 25+ psi on a evo 3 and e-85, people with much better setups can't stay with me in the desert, when they run 91 octane. When the hx-40 goes on, so will the huge front mount and a second pump with some 1600's, and i'll be back where i started, broken transmissions.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

Sorry for the thread going all over the place, but to directly answer you. Different piping is not going to help very much. The limit of the stock side mount and pumpgas is pretty constant, regardless of the rest of the setup. A hard pipe, and meth will allow you to run more boost than any front mount and pumpgas. Go to the track nearest you. Wait for a straight meth car to run. Feel the intake manifold after the run, it's cold, like frosty cold. Now if you plan on moving past a td05 frame turbo a larger intercooler and piping setup will pay off, flow, and cooling wise. But for anything 45 lbs/min and under i firmly believe a stock setup + e-85, or meth will be able to yield more power, especially with a td05 turbine causing massive exhaust gas reversion, requiring high octane and very cool intake charge to be effective. Now if you have the money for a front mount and e-85, or meth, of course it will make more power, but for the small budget, nothing beats alcohol. On my stock setup and 25+ psi on a evo 3 and e-85, people with much better setups can't stay with me in the desert, when they run 91 octane. When the hx-40 goes on, so will the huge front mount and a second pump with some 1600's, and i'll be back where i started, broken transmissions.

So what you are saying is that a bigger turbo will have less heat and allow me to make more power with pump gas. Once I max that out, I can go with a meth injection kit and be able to make more power? Like I stated earlier, I do not have access to E85 which makes pump gas my limit. I can go to the track and get 110 gas and alcohol, but that stuff is outrageously priced and they are not open year round. This my daily driver that I take each day 40 miles one way to work, so I need to run on whatever is widely available to me. Not sure if I missed anything or not, but is 400hp on 93 octane pump gas possible?

 

[bastard dsm]

all of this talking and i havnt seen him say how much timing he is runing on the chip. that might be your problem, 4k rpm is where your torque peaks most of the time...i bet your timing is a little high on your chip burn. just so you know i run 9deg of timing at 24psi on 93oct with a 2.3 with 8.8comp with zero knock. i would get a logger and see how much timing your running.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

I will get my logger charged up tonight and get a few logs tomorrow then post them on here. Should I leave my boost alone till I get the logs, or should I turn the boost down to 16 or 18 psi and get the logs?

 

[dsm-onster]

A bigger turbo doesn't let you run more boost and same tune to make more power. It lets you run the same boost and the same tune, but provides more airflow at that same boost (when you have a bigger hotside). This gives you more power. The compressor efficiency difference from 60% to 70% (where the same charge cooler is used) yields an increase in only 5 degrees F in temp at the intake manifold after you use decent charge cooling: 70% or better efficiency, like any FMIC. Water/meth injection CAN increase efficiency to over 100%, or colder than ambient temps.

I didn't realize you had a burned chip from dsmchips. . . Yes we heed a log. You're timing may not be too high. It would be best to log with the boost up to where it is now so that WE can see for sure where it is. If the boost is down, it may put you at different cells than with the boost up, depending on your airflow vs. rpm. Although this will put your headgasket at risk, of course. . .

You have a 2.0L motor. You should "need" a little more timing than 9 degrees of timing at peak because of your slower piston speed.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

yeah, that is what i was afraid of. I don't want to pop my headgasket....been through that once.

 

[dsm-onster]

It's your call. The timing could read higher than what it really is. The curve could look more aggresive, because you're hitting cells that are at lower flows at the same rpms. . . But we can guess

 

[bastard dsm]

finaly, i think we can get somewhere now....i would turn the boost down then go up to see where you start to have issues.i would start around 10psi then go 15psi then 20psi, on your car with your mods you sould be around 10-15deg max on the stock ic.

 

[donniekak]

It would help to know the specifics of the chip also. A chip with stock load ranges runs the same fuel and timing from about 15 psi to whatever you are running, so a log of 15 psi and no knock would be the highest load row. A chip burned with an extended fuel and timing map would have 2x the load range and the timing would continue to change as load was increased until about 30 psi. An easy way to check is to plug in a logger and see if it maxes out at 1600hz. Either way, without meth, e-85, or a larger intercooler, you won't see 400 hp on pump gas, on any turbo.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

ok, here are 2 logs I got today.

First log @ 15psi : RoadSurge.com - CSV Conversion for ID : 29

Second log @ 18psi : RoadSurge.com - CSV Conversion for ID : 30

I guess I have hit my max power with my set up at 18psi

 

[donniekak]

Get a log with a 3rg gear pull from 2500 to redline, with out running hard in the previous gear. Really doesn't look bad, it does look like you have the stock timing map. I wouldn't worry about the 7 counts of knock to much, but less would be better. If you can't modify your timing map i would drop the boost by 1-2 psi and call it a day.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

I tried a few 3rd gear pulls but since traffic sucked today, I could not get any good logs. I did see that @ 15psi, everything was find, but as soon as I bumped it up to 18psi, I started seeing knock. I am going to set the boost at 17psi and see how that does. I will also see if jeff can modify my timing a bit more than what I have now to compensate running higher boost. The chip I have in now does not have the stock 1g timing.

 

[snakeyes711]

wow, just looking at those timing advance numbers on there look crazy to what my stock looks like. why does it fall off when you get into the 5k, and higher numbers? it goes straight to 22, dials back to 17 around 4.5K,and one 24 then it falls off? I see a little knock there not a whole lot. My car with the FMIC gets that much up high like that but thats because I'm running out of injector.

BTW looking at the low FT, you got a small boost leak somewhere. My low fuel trim usually sits at 110%-115%.

 

[donniekak]

This is the stock map.

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[EagleTalonTim]

wow, just looking at those timing advance numbers on there look crazy to what my stock looks like. why does it fall off when you get into the 5k, and higher numbers? it goes straight to 22, dials back to 17 around 4.5K,and one 24 then it falls off? I see a little knock there not a whole lot. My car with the FMIC gets that much up high like that but thats because I'm running out of injector.

BTW looking at the low FT, you got a small boost leak somewhere. My low fuel trim usually sits at 110%-115%.

I did a boost leak test last week and there are none. The fuel trims are like that because my AFPR is set a little too high. I am working on adjusting that down slowly.