I need some opinions about a head swap

[1997TsiTalon]

Ok, I have a 2g talon and have a broken exhaust stud. It is less than flush with the head, and in the process if trying to remove it, I have broken an extractor off inside the bolt. As far as I can see, my next option is to pull the head. Since it is a 97, I am under the impression that a 1g head is a relatively simple swap (I have been through RRE's write-up on it). Here are my questions
1.) Do I have to pull the head at this point to get the stud out
2.) If I pull the head, should I spend like 200-300 and get a 1g head, or should I take my head to a machine shop to let them deal with it. (I dont want to run the risk of screwing it up and my metalworking tools are limited.) Any ideas on what having a machine shop helicoil it will run?
3.)I have a cyclone TB and intake that I want to put on the car, and have read the thread here about setting up the runners. If I keep the 2g head, RRE's website says that a 1g intake wont work with a 2g head, unless it is extremely ported. Is this true? Can someone who has put a cyclone intake in a 2g fill me in on what it was like? I have heard that you cant hook up A/C with the cyclone intake.
Thanks

 

[1fast97gsx]

either:

1) leave that broken stud in there and just grind it smooth so the manifold still sits flush with the head.

2) pull the head and drill a hole into the stud and try another extractor bit.

3) do the 1g head swap. I did the headswap and I have to say it wasn't too "hard" but you need a lot of 1g water lines as well as the thermostat housing and the big pipe in front too. You also have to weld shut that water return hole in the block. The shifter counterweight needs to be removed as well. Getting the map sensor to work on that manifold is also a pita because there is no place to put it unless you do some welding and cutting.

I say either leave the broken stud in there and dont worry about it or if you pull the head then do the 1g headswap. It's really not that bad but make sure your new head has a fresh valve job with new seals and guides. Do the timing belt as well so you don't have to pull it off again. I also recommend decking the new head and replacing the headgasket and the studs with arp.

 

[SrKegler]

The easiest way to remove that broken extractor is to simply use a punch and a hammer. The extractor are brittle and will shatter. Just use needle nose pliers to pull the pieces out of the hole.

Before you try removing the broken stud try heating it up. For real stubborn studs, I've tapped the hole, screwed a smaller bolt in, then cut the head off the bolt and use a large washer to tighten the manifold back up to prevent leaks.

 

[1997TsiTalon]

Thanks for the tip. The punch idea, that is what I did yesterday and it worked perfectly. I am going to get some better extractors and give it another shot. the broken stud is the first small one from the left, on top. If I cant get it out, would using two gaskets make enough of a seal? Also, I am going to an evo3 mani/16g/o2 housing. They are in the mail at the moment but I am told that the exhaust runners are larger than my stock 2g exhaust ports. Seems like this would decrease the tendency of a leak developing?

 

[SrKegler]

Without something to tighten it up, the possibility of a leak will always be there, especially on the end bolts.

Another thing I've done when I ran out of patience trying to remove a broken stud is simply weld another bolt onto the stud, if its sticking out of the head, cut the head off of it and fabricate a new stud out of it. You may have to straighten the bolt out some, they never want to weld on straight. Just use a little common sense when tightening it up.

 

[Cirus_93TSI]

as for the cyclone manifold, this should completly discourage you from wasting your time
the jdm TB is identical to the usdm one, except it has 1 vacume port, as oposed to 4.

the cyclone manifold itself will need a jdm ecu and wiring harness to work the secondary runners. otherwise, you need the white jdm canister, and to eliminate all your emmisions to get it to work the "rigged up" way. and even with it all working, the cyclone flows 1 CFM less then a stock 1g manifold at top end, secondary runners give you a little more torque at lower rpm. and even with the 16g i run its apparent that i have no low end to enhance, maybe if you had a t25 or t28 and wanted to pull harder from a low rpm roll.
people have tanken them appart, and removed the secondary runners, then ported the cyclone manifold to make it flow better then a stock 1g mani, but thats a lot of work for a few CFM over stock.

for cyclone 1g mani with 2g head
the reason is isnt going to work is the same reason people swap 1g heads on 7 bolt. the 1g ports are consoiderably larger, as are the run ers on any 1g manifold

what this means is, that you cant gain any airflow(or any power from the manifold) because the head ports are the same size as the stock 2g mani, and will not flow any more air the the stock manifold and head did.

what it will do, is cause turbulance when the air is commong down the runner(which purely for example, dont know its real size) lets say is 3", then it hits a wall with a 2" hole in it(which would be your 2g head)

so its not as if it wolnt start up and dirve is you put a 1g mani on a 2g head. but it will make less power then with the stock 2g manifold. unless you have a very ported 2g head. i have one of those cyclone manifolds in my buddys basement, with a 1g head, nd alot of other parts. its useless, unless you want to have smeone port all the hell out of it for a cheap alternative to a sheet metal mani

 

[Tevenor]

as for the cyclone manifold, this should completly discourage you from wasting your time
the jdm TB is identical to the usdm one, except it has 1 vacume port, as oposed to 4.

the cyclone manifold itself will need a jdm ecu and wiring harness to work the secondary runners. otherwise, you need the white jdm canister, and to eliminate all your emmisions to get it to work the "rigged up" way. and even with it all working, the cyclone flows 1 CFM less then a stock 1g manifold at top end, secondary runners give you a little more torque at lower rpm. and even with the 16g i run its apparent that i have no low end to enhance, maybe if you had a t25 or t28 and wanted to pull harder from a low rpm roll.
people have tanken them appart, and removed the secondary runners, then ported the cyclone manifold to make it flow better then a stock 1g mani, but thats a lot of work for a few CFM over stock.

for cyclone 1g mani with 2g head
the reason is isnt going to work is the same reason people swap 1g heads on 7 bolt. the 1g ports are consoiderably larger, as are the run ers on any 1g manifold

what this means is, that you cant gain any airflow(or any power from the manifold) because the head ports are the same size as the stock 2g mani, and will not flow any more air the the stock manifold and head did.

what it will do, is cause turbulance when the air is commong down the runner(which purely for example, dont know its real size) lets say is 3", then it hits a wall with a 2" hole in it(which would be your 2g head)

so its not as if it wolnt start up and dirve is you put a 1g mani on a 2g head. but it will make less power then with the stock 2g manifold. unless you have a very ported 2g head. i have one of those cyclone manifolds in my buddys basement, with a 1g head, nd alot of other parts. its useless, unless you want to have smeone port all the hell out of it for a cheap alternative to a sheet metal mani

I will only highlight the pieces I want to clarify as there is too much here to clear up.

1) The Cyclone manifolds can be made to work. I have either helped install and/or know a half dozen just locally. All have seen significant spool gains on turbos as small as a 14b and as large as a 50 trim. You don't need the JDM ECU for them to work right. Just takes some smarts and some ingenuity.

2) The cyclone doesn't fit on a 2G head not only because of the nasty turbulence in air flow, but just getting it to seal is a pain in the ass. Don't bother for either of the reasons.

3) The 1G heads are highly overrated and 2G heads are highly underated.

4) Throwing a 1G manifold on a 2G unported head isn't a guaranteed loss of hp nor is in guaranteed to make less than a 2G intake manifold. Although having that much of a turbulent flow right before the bowl isn't going to help any.

 

[1997TsiTalon]

2) The cyclone doesn't fit on a 2G head not only because of the nasty turbulence in air flow, but just getting it to seal is a pain in the ass. Don't bother for either of the reasons.

3) The 1G heads are highly overrated and 2G heads are highly underated.

4) Throwing a 1G manifold on a 2G unported head isn't a guaranteed loss of hp nor is in guaranteed to make less than a 2G intake manifold. Although having that much of a turbulent flow right before the bowl isn't going to help any.

I didnt want this to turn into an intake argument. I think I am going to keep the 2g head. I would like to make the cyclone intake work, and am fairly handy with a grinder. I beleive that a 2g head can be gasket matched to the cyclone intake, am i wrong? What are the repurcussions of porting the head that severely. (I realize that this ONLY increases the inlet size, not the flow of the head. I want to do this solely to eliminate the "air ledge" created by the difference in runner size.) If the 2g head cant be ported that much, I have heard that 2g intakes can be extrude honed. I am not sure what that is or what it does. Can someone explain the benefits of this process? Also, if I keep the 2g intake, I want to use the 60mm TB. I have seen a write-up on this somewhere, cant remember. Thanks

 

[BOBS90TURBO]

About the broken studs, I had 2 broken studs a few months ago and ended up buying a set of $100 ss studs and a think copper gasket, thinking if I could tighten it down real tight it would not leak,,,,,,,,I was wrong, it started leaking on the second stud from the end after a week.
So the last 2-3 days I pulled my mani/turbo to install a B16G and try to fix the flush broken studs with broken extractors in both,,,,,,,,,I did it with a carbide dremil bit and patience, just keep eating out that center part untill you can get a bigger/stronger extractor in there, also use lots of HEAT, I bought a mini torch and got it red hot before I tried to back it out, and it they both came out so easy I was shocked.

Also the extractor I used was one of the stronger 4 sided ones, one with 4 sharp edges, not the normal screw/swirl pattern. Let me know if I can help and good luck..

 

[rarson]

and even with it all working, the cyclone flows 1 CFM less then a stock 1g manifold at top end, secondary runners give you a little more torque at lower rpm.

1 CFM? That's likely variable from one flowbench to another (on the same bench) with the same manifold. Besides, who cares how much a manifold flows? It's about the power it makes. And that manifold on a 2g head will likely hurt torque on the low end (I know, you were probably talking about a 1g head but he's got a 2g head).

or cyclone 1g mani with 2g head
the reason is isnt going to work is the same reason people swap 1g heads on 7 bolt.

There are 1g's with 7-bolt cranks.

The turbulence is going to come from the fact that the 2g ports are hogged out to match the 1g ports. The problem is, most people just match the inlet side and blend it an inch or two into the port. So you have a hole the size of a 1g port shrinking down to a hole the size of a 2g port in a very short distance. It turns the port into a nozzle; velocity increases but all that turbulence craps up the flow (also, a nozzle's outlet pressure decreases as the velocity increases). If you want the high velocity without the turbulence then leave the 2g ports stock. In my opinion, the 1g ports are a bit too big for the stock throttle body and valves anyway. It really all depends on the entire head setup as a whole.

The only difference between the EVO3 manifold and the 2g exhaust manifold is that the collector outlet starts off at 7 inches, rather than 6 so you don't have to port the step down to match it to a 7cm exhaust housing. Seems like a waste of money to me if you have the bit and the grinder to do it yourself, but I like to do things myself.

If I were you, I'd look into swapping on a 1g throttle body instead of the Cyclone. I'm using one, still on the stock intake manifold, stock 2g head, with cams, and I managed a 12.37 on a small 16g @ 20 psi, on pump, with no opportunity for any track tuning. I'm expecting a little more, especially with some race gas and more boost. Tevenor's right, the 2g head is very underrated.

 

[1fast97gsx]

If I were you, I'd look into swapping on a 1g throttle body instead of the Cyclone. I'm using one, still on the stock intake manifold, stock 2g head, with cams, and I managed a 12.37 on a small 16g @ 20 psi, on pump, with no opportunity for any track tuning. I'm expecting a little more, especially with some race gas and more boost. Tevenor's right, the 2g head is very underrated.

I agree there ... my car went 12.8 on a small 16g at 17/18 psi. All I had was a 1g throttle body as far as head / intake work. The 2g head is VERY underrated, however the 1g IS better. If you want to take the easy way out for now just swap throttle bodys.

 

[Enraged78]

The 2g head is VERY underrated, however the 1g IS better.

This is a very common misconception. I currently have my 2G head out of the car, on a flowbench, right next to a 1G head. It is true that FROM THE FACTORY, the 1G head and intake manifold do in fact flow more. A lot more. However, the oil and water lines on the 1G and 2G head are identical. Meaning that all that seperates a 1G head from a 2G head (besides the cams, and the wierd 95-6CAS) is the amount of material in the intake ports, runners, and bowls. So, in reality, if you're going to go all out and have your head ported on a flow bench and matched for your cams, then the 2G head with a 1G intake manifold (or sheetmetal), and 1G throttle body would be the best choice. This is because your machinist can work with the head a little more, and massage the ports for the best possible flow for your cams. The 1G head already has most of the material removed, and there isn't as much room to work with as the 2G head.

Matt.

 

[rarson]

The problem is, people can't seem to understand how theory deviates from reality. Hey! Just because some equation states that x is better than y doesn't mean that x will always be better than y in every real life application! The thing that most people forget is that flow isn't everything. The simple fact is that the velocity flowing into the combustion chamber will be better with the 2g head, which will be better suited for certain applications.

Besides, the stock 2g head has gotten well into the 11's (shit, on the DSMLink boards, almost in the 10's... the mph was certainly there!).