hydraulic lifters will not depress fresh out of the car

[Sirius Spyder]

Sooo... My car has no compression over cylinder one. Engine has been taken apart and put back together several times by multiple mechanics. Bottom half has been totally rebuilt. Bored .4 over. Top half has now been decked twice. New springs, three angle valve job, 272 Crower cams were placed in during the original rebuild. Timing was set dead center though on this trip to the garage the belt was loose. I have the parts to change out the whole timing apparatus. Head gasket look completely fine. All of the cylinders have carbon on them except cylinder one which looks completely clean. The spark plugs look fine except the plug over cylinder one is caked in carbon. The mechanic I'm at now thought that the answer must be a valve so he took the head off to find that the valves were okay, but the exhaust valves over cylinder one were not closing completely. He took the lifters out of the car and tried compressing them to no avail. He had a bigger guy at the shop try to muscle the lifters down with a humungous set of channel locks (which I bared witness to today) with the same result. The gentleman from the shop calls me up, and tells me the lifters are rock solid and that's my issue. I asked him if he bled them, and he said no but they should still go down under the pressure of channel locks. As far as I know the only way they will go down is if you paper clip the check ball.

Background on my lifters... From the start of the rebuild originally I had no compression over cylinder one. The guy who helped me rebuild the engine (liquidgs-t) grabbed a spare set out of his old 97 parts car with the same result. I put in 3mm revised lifters. Same result. Second mechanic said it was the cams but then change his mind to the bottom half of my engine so I had the bottom bored 0.40 with the same result. This is also when the top half was re-decked and the three angle valve job, and the new springs were added. We never tried changing out the cams.

Third mechanic swears it is the lifters and wants me to put originals in and scrap the revised ones... Making it the fourth set of lashers and possibly still no cylinder one.

On a side note, I bought Crower 272s for the original rebuild. Does anyone have pictures or know if the exhaust side should also have the slit for a cam angle sensor?

What say you?

Please help and thank you in advance. Sorry so long.

 

[GRAVEDIGGER]

It sounds like you need to either find a new mechanic, or just start working on the damn thing yourself like the rest of us have learned to do, because you just can't trust anyone but yourself. It sounds like you know more about these cars then your mechanic does. They can have the Incredible Hulk get on the vice grips and squeeze and he still wouldn't be able to compress the lifters, because they're hydraulically locked. That's they way they're supposed to be. In fact, that's how you check to see if they're bad. If they compress at all they are considered bad and need replacing.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/365986-diy-lash-ajusters-lifters-cleaning.html

I guess I would be suspecting the cam next.

 

[james3340]

The only side that should have a slit is the intake cam

 

[jrohner]

If that's how they are trying to compress your lifters, get a new mechanic (and a paperclip).

 

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

Yep, find a new mechanic before they do damage to your motor. They obviously don't know how to properly diagnose your car and if they can't even bleed a lifter I would not trust them to do ANYTHING else.

 

[91boostfedGSX]

Yep, find a new mechanic before they do damage to your motor. They obviously don't know how to properly diagnose your car and if they can't even bleed a lifter I would not trust them to do ANYTHING else.

This indeed....

Sent from my Epic 4G BITCHES

 

[BogusSVO]

check the tip height of the valves.. if too long abd even with the HLA fully compressed, it will cause the valve to hang open

 

[Sirius Spyder]

Yeah, I told my mechanic that if you are able to compress them without bleeding them that you know they are dead lifters. As far as working on this car myself... I originally rebuilt the engine with another member (liquidgs-t) so I thought we must have f^@%ed it up when we built it. Thus the mechanicS. The guy working on it now has a 600 hp awd 1g, and he honestly seems to know a great deal about these cars. He just never seemed to believe it could ever be a cam though I've heard it from several people, and I myself spent the $800 on HKS cams up front because I was so confident. I left that all out in my original post because I wanted a no BS assessment from you boys without influencing anyone's response too much.

I went to the shop with a pair of HKS 272s in hand plus the timing parts... The HKS cams and obviously the stock cams don't have the slit on the end of the exhaust cam for the angle sensor.

@james3340 - Are you sure that Crower cams don't have the slit on the exhaust, too? It is stamped EXT, but it looks pretty much like the intake side right down to the cam angle sensor cut on the end of it. And so everyone knows... My cams are Crower's not Brian Crower's

I am going to take my laptop down to the mechanic to show him my findings in this thread. Thanks to everyone who commented. I really appreciate it.

As a proud American I'm going to get back to remembering 9/11 by watching some football. Thanks ladies.

Edit: @BogusSVO - Yeah the original concern was the valves. With a set of bled lifters the valves close fully. My mechanic brought in his lifters off of his old motor to test it.

 

[BogusSVO]

I can understand that the valves will be closed with bled lifters

once the oil pressure builds, and I would bet that you have the BSE done, so your oil pressure is in the relm of 80-100 psi.

If this is the case, then the oil pressure is forcing the lifter to pump up, cracking the valve off the seat.

I would check the valve tip height, it should be 1.920-1.950 on the intake and 1.920-1.950 on the exhaust side, with out the spring shim installed.

The HLAs need to be about midrage of there movement, when the engine is running

if the tip height is too short, say 1.900, then the HLA will pump up to try to make up the clearance. if it can not it will click when running, and the click comes from the follower slamming agaist the cam.

Now if the tip height is too tall, say 1.980, the HLA plunger will be too low,so the oil pressure will force the HLA into its working range, when this happens, it can crack the valve off the seat causing lack of compression.

most lifters have a working range of appox .030, so as long as you are in that range, or even close, I would say +/- .005 of the posted tip range you should be fine.

the other reason to be in the tip height range, will have to do with the valve train geomentry, too long or too short can and will cause excessive side loads on the valve stem and that causes excessive guide wear and valve seat patterns.

 

[Sirius Spyder]

Hmmmm... Interesting point. After the original rebuild, though, the valves were never touched save for a cleaning at the machine shop. The valves weren't touched until the second machine shop physically altered them with the three angle job. The beginning of the issue predates this. Is there anything that can cause this on a motor that seized? Otherwise it was completely fine before that.

Thanks for taking the time to respond... I really appreciate it.

 

[Calan]

Something seems really odd here. I lost track of how many head jobs and sets of lifters you've gone through, but something isn't adding up.

The first thing I would do is just pull the lifters completely out, and then do a leak-down test to see if any of the valves are leaking. Pulling the lifters takes the cams and rocker assemblies completely out of the equation.

FWIW - I just had a head that took two attempts at new seats and grinding to get the valves to seal, because the shop wasn't used to these heads... and his tool company sent him a CNC mandrel that was very slightly undersized, allowing the cutter to wobble slightly. He was also trying to cut all the seats off of one CNC index point, which doesn't work because the guide bosses like to shift a bit when the head is cast. (Bogus may have some more insight into this as well).

 

[BogusSVO]

when the vales are ground, and the seats are cut, it raises the tip height.

how were the valves cleaned? after the org rebuild and befor the 2nd VJ?

how battered/ wore were the seats to start?

how much was cut from the seat? and how much ground from the valve?

also if the valve seat was set out to far towards the edge of the valve on the org VJ... then the valves can "tulip" or pull thu the seat.. this will also raise the tip height.

Now Calan... the pilot that fits in the guide needs to be snug on a "dead pilot" set up and that is my set up, the only time I have come across that the seats will not cut true when centered up off one guide to cut all 8 seats is when the head is badly warped, and the end guides will angle towards the center. if this is the case the head should be replaced or at a min strightened.

Now a "Live pilot" setup the piolt is built into the cutter head and MUST have a bit of clearance between the piolt and the guide, this set up can cut seats in an oval shape, most were the first gen of 3 angle cutter machines (Serdi 100, some peterson tooling) and have fallen to the way side for the dead pilot set ups, but some shops still use them beacuse that is what came with the equipment when purchased.

Sounds like the shop that had to re-do your valve job Calan, was/is using the live pilot set up.

even when the head is cast, yes the guides may shift a touch, but it should not cause the machinist to have to level each guide.

I have used both styles and do agree that the dead pilot set up is more accurate and less costly to maintain.

 

[Calan]

I don't want to jack this guy's thread, but the machinist that did my head has a fairly new machine. The head was never badly warped as far as I know; it only took a little over .001" IIRC to clean it up again when he surfaced it. I think it was a combination of things along with a loss of patience.

I dunno... my car is just possessed sometimes.

EDIT:

Bogus - I believe the machine is a Rottler SG8. Does that ring a bell?

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I can't figure out what cams he has, not that it's particularly crucial, however.

So the mech with the 600awhp 1g is the guy going around with channel locks? You sure he's good to go?
I'm eager to hear about your "tip length".

 

[Sirius Spyder]

He checked the valve tip height in front of me... 4mms and definitely not stock according to his estimations. The valve was hanging open by 1/8 of an inch only on the exhausts first valve all the way on the right over cylinder one. He said he removed the cams and lifters and checked to see if they seated properly and they do. The cams from Crower are 64413-2 according to the bill of sale. I bought them through Extreme PSI. Mitsubishi/DSM Camshafts (sorry I don't know how to hyperlink that)

As far as the condition of the valves before they went to the machine shop I can't say. This is going back two years. I can say that the head went to two different machine shops.

Also, I would mention that it is hanging an 1/8 of an inch. How much of that could be caused by valves???

Don't worry about thread jackin' because I'm taking all the information away from this I can. It still may very well relate to me.

EDIT: The cap of the spring is not stock, not the valve. He said it has more of a lull than a stock one.

 

[jimbob_843]

I think the first mechanic was the vice gripping fool, the 600hp guy is the new mechanic. Im interested to see some results on this

 

[Sirius Spyder]

Unfortunately, Jimbob, they are one in the same. We will know soon enough, though, as I told him to put the lifters back in without replacing them. I told him to bleed them and clean them. The only thing that is really being changed that would impact this is the HKS cam install so if it is a cam issue we shall know for sure. I am hoping it will be back together on Wednesday. I also had the oil port mod done on the head since it was off. Will this cause issues with the balance shafts removed concerning oil pressure being too high?

 

[BogusSVO]

4mm? he must have checked from the valve tip to retainer... NOT right

you have to check from the spring pad to the valve tip, the spring and shim need to be removed

1/8 of an inch? thats alot, there is some other issue..... until that is found out, I feel you are wasting time and money and gaskets.

this is a long shot, and not one I have seen on a 4g head before..... look down the exhast ports, and see if the bottom of the guides protrued from the casting about the same, maybe even install the cam and followers and rotate the cam over a few times and watch the guides in question.

I have seen guides come loose in the casting and go up and down with the vales, sometimes hanging the valve open.

 

[Sirius Spyder]

Thanks Bogus, I appreciate you still racking your brain on this. I will let him know what you said and see what he finds.

Everyone feel free to keep 'em comin'.

 

[Calan]

1/8 of an inch? thats alot, there is some other issue....

This ^.

1/8" is a HUGE amount for a valve to be open when it shouldn't be, and I think it would take an astronomical amount of stem height error alone to account for that.

I stand by my original statement that something isn't adding up here.

EDIT:

The more I think about this, the more sure I am that your mechanic is either clueless or in over his head. If he can't figure out what is going on by simply verifying a few measurements (guide positioning, stem height, cam lift, etc.)... he should at least be able to bolt up a degree wheel and determine EXACTLY what is going on fairly quickly.

I've lost track; is the motor in or out of the car at this point?

 

[Sirius Spyder]

The motor is in the car. It was supposed to be finished two days ago. It should be finished today. I'll post up what I find once I finish.

 

[Sirius Spyder]

UPDATE: Car has been fixed... With the replacement of the Crower cams with HKS cams the car runs perfect. So it may be that they shipped me two intake cams or they just had a bad set but either way it was the cams. Also, to reiterate, the faulty cams are Crower cams Mitsubishi/DSM Camshafts (model number 64413-2) not Brian Crower. Thanks again to everyone who weighed in on this I really appreciate it. That's a big reason I'm a proud DSM owner.

 

[obsidian]

Congratulations on finding the fix.