HX40 19cm2 housing machined to fit HX52 with quick spool valve

[JusMX141]

Ohhhhkayyyy the topic is someone posted photos of a HX52 that was machined into a 19cm HX40 turbine housing. GO.

I shall clean up this thread abortion at my earliest convenience.

 

[dsmcurse]

Thanks justin. Home-boy is just a hater.for all his big words of talkin shit I don't think his ride reflects his so called "knowledge" sounds like doctor emmit brown lost his flux capaciter somewhere along the way and now has a one tire fire lazer that can't hit the required 88MPH...

Boostdriven had a sd card that took a dive and he lost his pics. These are the old pics I found on my blackberry

 

[Cdc1221]

Spoonman, talking shit on the guy is really uncalled for. The quick spool valve looks great. The welds look good. Dsmcurse, , i have to disagree. You guys think about how a twin cylinder air compressor works. It has a big cylinder that pulls air in, compresses it, pushes it into the small cylinder to be compressed even further before going to the tank. Now think about if that were in reverse... the compressor system would be limited to the air the small cylinder could draw in, and the big cylinder would just be a waste of energy. Same concept...

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

You do have quite a knack for fabrication, Boostdriven. I'll certainly grant you that. But bear with me a moment here..

Running the HX40 at 1.3-1.5PR ahead of the HX52 is not helping you really. What were your IATs?

We know putting positive pressure at the inlet of a compressor can be beneficial, as it is just a pressure multiplying pump, but in pushing that charge through an inefficient area of a smaller compressors map first all you have done is unnecessarily increased IATs before it gets to the larger compressor creating yet higher IATs than you would have gotten running the same PSIG at a higher PR on the 52 alone.

You won't get that mass flow of the HX52 because it has a restrictor in the form of the HX40 compressor inlet ahead of it, nor will you see the spool of the HX40 with this setup because it has to breathe through another turbine.

Now the simple math of this is the HX52s turbine will take whatever backpressure it has on the discharge side of its turbine and multiply that across the wheel by the expansion ratio.

This is going to determine the HX40s effective backpressure.. which also gets multiplied across the 40's wheel by its expansion ratio and adds to the drive pressure in the manifold.

So indeed this setup will have none of the advantages of a proper compound setup. You would be better suited to a proper small runner twin-scroll setup and a smaller single turbo that will still meet your flow requirements.

Though I do give you kudos for putting it together to try it out!

The supercharger into a turbocharger idea has similar issues, as well as a few others that would make for a real cumbersome lengthy post. Based on previous conversations with you and DSMCurse I know you have a healthy understanding on a range of topics, but I would suggest more research is needed here with staged compressors on a spark ignition engine, be they belt or gear-driven eaton/roots blowers or centrifugal compressors driven by a turbine in the exhaust stream.

 

[Cdc1221]

He certainly does have the knack. Im real interested to see where he goes with this housing. Subscribing...

 

[dsmcurse]

Id like to say the whole "compound plumbed backwards" idea litteraly came from talking about if a guy were to turbocharge his turbo. But instead of just day-dreams and speculation, he made it a reality. There could 500 dudes talkin about this idea and only a small hand full of guys like maybe 3 or 4 would be ambitious enough to put the money where the mouth is and actually TRY it. Gotta respect a guys effort. Weather compound plumbed backwards works or dont work really is besides the point. This guy went out of his way to attempt an expierement and share the results with everyone. True props are deserved here.

As far as hx52 guts stuffed into a hx40 hot-housing goes, this was another idea born from talking about how to make the big 52 could spool faster. We were litteraley sittin at his work bench in his garage saying "to bad we couldnt stuff these huge ass 52 guts into the smaller 40 housing..." Next thing i know, alex has full fledge machining process lined up and built his own day dreams into the real world. Not many guys would have the paitentce or sheer talent to do so.

Quick spool valve, turbocharged turbo, custom hot housing, this is all attempts to make the big lazy dog 52 a lil more quick on its toes. Short of him changing out his 8.5-1 pistons for 10.0-1 pistons, i think he is doin a great job of trying and having the balls to do so really sets this guy apart from the rest of the croud.

Theres always gotta be that bad apple tho... Some pist off hater internet hidin behind his laptop talkin shit asshole will always come around and stink things up. It doesnt really mattet tho. This is life, and there will always be that dick to try an cut ya down. Doesnt matter if its about building a house, a boat, a turbo, whatever. There will always be at least one **** to try an cut ya down. Agin, this is life.

I know alex all to well, since he got a hx40 like 6 or 7 years ago he has tried a huge handfull of other turbos and ALWAYS goes back to the mighty ol trusted hx40. He'll try the custom housing 52 out and will more than likely go back to the 40. But, at least the experience and knowledge was gained. Thats alot more to be said about the guy than could be said about internet troll talkin mad S.

I guess no one had heard the phrase "give credit where credit is due"

The guy is bassically doing the whole comunity a favor with the expierement. Stays humble and shares his expierence. Bring it on troll, nothing you can say will hurt the guys feelings. The few grey hairs he's got didnt come from this site.

Im bettin the 52 shoved into a 40 hot housing is gonna make the turbo a hell of alot friendlier on the street. People need to keep in mind that his gsx is a 600hp STREET CAR not race car. If the purpose was to build all out bragging rights on a dyno racecar i can garen####entee he would be clearing 1000awhp right here right now. But thats not the purpose. Its a sreetcar that could even double for a DD.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I guess no one had heard the phrase "give credit where credit is due"

Except that is basically what I said in my last post, twice.

As well as a short polite factual addendum to the compound turbo discussion. Which is consistent with my first post asking about his hypothesis.

I was trying to ease into my analysis. I have a compound turbo project in the works, and have been researching now for a few years. Had the good fortune to get my hands dirty on a couple of compound diesels as well and gain some real world experience.

There is a load of data and evidence available if you search for it on the pros and cons of "twin charging" (supercharger->turbo) and compound charging, as well as the different approaches to them.

I equip my cars as test beds, trying to get all pertinent data to help form tentative conclusions. When something fails to perform as well as planned, I try and find out why and then improve. Afterwards I assess again and decide whether to attempt further improvement or scrap the project and try a different route.

There is no shame in experimenting, finding the data does not support what you had hoped it would and trying again or moving on.

Learning is the whole point! If you can fabricate like this guy, even better.

I can run MasterCAM and CNC, use CAD etc. But I don't have access to the facilities. Nor do I currently have a lathe, 5-axis machine or welder at home. Fortunately I have developed a great relationship with a machinist and a welder and the three of us work together to put my designs to work under the budget I have allotted for the cars. Sometimes things work, sometimes they dont. Sometimes they come out pretty, sometimes they don't

 

[Cdc1221]

Landspeed, his comment, i believe was aimed towards spoon. You and i were offering constructive criticism. Have one question. Do you guys think this housing might cause surging issues? I assume youre going to build a custom 4 into 1 manifold to make the quick spool work, correct?

 

[dsmcurse]

Landspeed i def wasnt talkin towards you.

Oh and to respond back to a earlier comment about intake air temps on that compound, 12.5" tall by 24" long by 4" thick fmic fed by 3" short route piping into a intake manni thats rigged for direct port water meth kept iat plenty good and in check.

A bunk air filter and a smokey 52 made him give up to early. But i bet boostdriven will chime in and explain his intake and exhaust temps

 

[Boostdriven]

I want to thank those who spoke their respectful opinion and constructive criticism, I take no offense to that.

I don't want to stray this thread much further from the original topic but I would like to say something.

I agree with some of you and your reasoning but I think we are talking about two different goals in mind when we are talking about compound turbo. I completely understand how a traditional compound set up work and for those who are looking to run 50-60 psi of boost that is the next best thing. But that's not what I was trying to do, my goal was to run somewhere around 35 psi which I know HX52 by itself would have no problem supporting. The thing that I didn't like was that my low compression motor, long ram horn exhaust manifold, huge intake manifold and big cams will not help the street manners with that turbo. I didn't need a compound turbo for my goal but I just wanted a little faster spool up.

Keep in mind that all my testing with that setup was done with a filter that did the same thing on a proven to work single HX40 turbo that I had before. I only got about 4 good test pulls out if that set up before I decided to stop embarrassing myself driving around with a smoky turbo

All this happened few years ago so I don't remember all the detail about air intake temps and egts. As far as I remember the spool up was a little better then with a single HX40 but not by much.
I'm sure there would be a point where HX52 would outrun the HX40 and start "pulling" vacuum between the two turbos, but that point didn't happen in my case. Even with that filter I was still logging at least 2-4 psi of boost by red line in between the two turbos. I never got a chance to dial in the wastegate between the turbos. I'm sure there would be a happy medium between the exhaust flow through the turbo to keep the air flow and the bypassed pressure through the wastegate going in to the HX52.

I'm not sharing this information with you guys to start a big controversy. All I'm saying is this is what I did and those where the results I've seen. Unfortunately I don't have any solid facts due to lack of testing, but the little information I have gathered from few tests that I did proves to me that with more testing and fine tuning there is a chance it might work. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone. If I told you to go just off the bridge, would you do it probably not.

Now back to the topic.

Do you guys think this housing might cause surging issues? I assume youre going to build a custom 4 into 1 manifold to make the quick spool work, correct?

I already have a 4 in 1 manifold built with a spool valve, I tested my HX40 with machined garrett T4 divided .84 a/r housing. I posted results earlier in this thread.
I thought about surging but I don't think that will be an issue looking at people who run HX40s with BEP .55 a/r bolt on housing with no problems.

 

[Cdc1221]

True that. I mustve missed that part as my eyes were on the pics . Thanks for not taking offense as i certainly didnt mean any. My fault for going off topic

 

[Boostdriven]

True that. I mustve missed that part as my eyes were on the pics . Thanks for not taking offense as i certainly didnt mean any. My fault for going off topic

No worries my friend

 

[YoYo_4G63]

Props to you Boostdriven you have awesome skills.

 

[Boostdriven]

TJCTalon asked for a picture of my whole set up so here is a pic of my engine as it sits right now waiting for the HX52 as well as pics of the HX52 with HX40 housing. The last pic is HX40 and HX52 housings

 

[dsmcurse]

I really like the final pic here. The custom hot housing looks sick!

 

[Boostdriven]

Well I got the car done today, just came back from a test drive, tired as hell but at least not disappointed
I didn't get a chance to mess with my mbc for the spool valve so it would start to open at 23 psi of boost, I need to raise that to about 29 psi. Once the valve starts to open exhaust pressure drops and slows down the boost climb. Boost doesn't drop just loosed its rate of climb. Full boost was 33 psi.

So here are the spool results.
3rd gear starting at 2500 rpms

RPM BOOST EX PRESSURE
3000 1 1
3500 2 1
4000 4 4
4500 8 9
5000 15 16
5500 28 19
5800 33 17
8200 33 24

At 8200 rpms and 33 psi my airflow was at 56 lbs/min which isn't accurate, my VE cells at that boost are 79%

4th gear starting at 2500 rpm

RPM BOOST EX PRESSURE
3000 2 2
3500 3 3
4000 6 5
4500 15 15
5000 29 16
5200 33 16
6500 33 19

Let off at 6500

5th gear full boost 33psi by 4700 rpm.

My exhaust pressure with this turbo is 3-4 psi lower then with my HX40.
I'll do some more texting probably tomorrow and try to dial in my spool valve, I'm thinking I should gain another 100-200 rpms in spool up.

 

[dsmcurse]

Congrads my friend! Job well done! Can't wait to ride in this thing! Agin, awesome job man!

 

[Cdc1221]

Hows spool and power over the hx40? Can we expect a video for those of us who dont live nearby?

 

[RWD4G63]

Wow, nice fabwork on the housing, I would have never even thought to weld a v-band onto the CHRA side of a turbine housing to make it fit. That gives me ideas!

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Great data thank you for sharing the backpressure rise as well as rates in multiple gears. Curious to see how that changes with adjustments to the spool valve operation.

Curious to see what your 70-90 and 80-100 times are on 33psi. This is the 67mm compressor version?

 

[Boostdriven]

I'll try to make a video sometime just not sure how good its going to be with my phone.

Spool is a little slower then my HX40, maybe by about 300 rpms but the power definitely feels better.

From 70-90 its about 1.2 seconds and 80-100 is 1.1 seconds.

I couldn't get a 100% accurate measurement of the compressor wheel because its a 7 blade so you can't do tip to tip measurement but I know its around 66-67mm, the exducer of the compressor wheel is 98mm.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Very cool. So that's on the standard wheel. I'm curious to see how my standard wheel compares to the billet wheel 71mm.

Keep us posted, our setups are somewhat comparable and I'm only about two weeks from firing up on the new combo.

 

[Boostdriven]

It is a factory billet wheel.

Wow, nice fabwork on the housing, I would have never even thought to weld a v-band onto the CHRA side of a turbine housing to make it fit. That gives me ideas!

You can do anything you want if you put your mind to it. Someone had to come up with an idea for a spaceship before it was built

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Hmm, my 67 is cast.

There's got to be around 30 flavors of these HX5- turbos

 

[Archer Fabrications]

I had the chance to buy one of these for 200 bucks... But i was advised not to because it would barely fit. Are you guys using top mount manifolds? Or half rads? My hx40 is pretty tight as is with the .55 bolt on. I am thinking I'll have a challenge with the .70AR t3, so how the f would you fit a .86+ housing in there with that huge of a compressor cover for the HX-5x series