1G How's my setup look?

[SomeCallMeSquatch]

Hey everyone, long long time lurker, and posting up to make sure I have everything. The car is a 1990 GSX 5 Speed, and my goals are 425whp and 11s in the 1/4.

Here's the plan

• Stock 144K 6 Bolt Shortblock
• ARP Head Studs/OEM MLS Head Gasket
• Stock Head with EVO Springs and Kiggly HLA
• GSC S1 Camshafts with EVO IX Timing Belt
• Stock Intake/1G N/T Throttle Body
• FP Race Exhaust Manifold.
• FP 68HTA
• VRSF FMIC
• 3" TBE
• Southbend Clutch .
• Deatschwerks DW300 with Hotwire
• Deatschwerks 1200cc Injectors with Fuelab AFPR
• Pump E85
• DIY COP with Yaris Coils
• NGK BPR7ES Plugs
• DSMLink V3 Speed Density Setup
• FD RX7 Wheels with QTPs

 

[donniekak]

I just installed the DSM82 on Saturday. Still wants to knock if I go leaner than the parameters I outlined above. Boost still wants to taper off like with the 76 too. 37psi peak boost falls to 30-31psi at 8000. At least the car feels faster than it did before. Scary fast. My concern is the back pressure.

With the car set at 26psi it holds straight across. Get it up past 30 and it tapers down.

I really just need to get my funds together and put this BW 362sxe on with a 1.01 divided t4 housing. I think that'd allow me to lean it out a bit and keep knock at bay.

What wastegate, and exhaust setup are you runnng? I could run 40 psi with a 14psi 38mm turbosmart off the manifold. I also have a full 3" straight through exhaust. A cat or resonator could add backpressure.

I have noticed boost taper now with a precision 46mm gate. I hate large gates, but its the flange that my manifold came with.

 

[Kapok6]

Tial 44mm with 21psi springs, exhaust is apex N1 turbo back with a 60mm gate off the downpipe that opens at 7psi.

I'm honestly thinking it's just a more efficient motor as that was really all that changed between setups and I never had this issue on the old setup.

 

[donniekak]

The dsm82 should hold way over 30psi with a 21lb spring on any 4g setup.

I actually liked the power delivery of the dsm82 over the t3 .82 3586. But the torque was devasting. Ive touched 600hp on my current setup with only 400ft/lbs of non tranny killing torque. And, i have about 200hp of overhead to crank it up at the track.

 

[Kapok6]

So what do you think would be the issue then? You don't think the hotside is restricting this? I can't think of any other reason it wouldn't hold. This is with an mbc with a new spring and a Mac valve. Same thing.

 

[SomeCallMeSquatch]

I will switch the fuel pump to a Walbro 450, that's no problem.

I was also concerned about the block, I'll go ahead and do arp rod bolts, new bearings, and at least new rings. Although, I have been contemplating EVO IX pistons, but I'm not sure if it's worth it? Thanks for all of the help guys.

 

[Boomdeeze]

I ran the EVO IX pistons for awhile. I made 581 AWHP with them on 1G rods. I thought they were a good setup but for the amount of money you will have in machining the rods to fit the pistons, you can buy a forged setup.

 

[donniekak]

So what do you think would be the issue then? You don't think the hotside is restricting this? I can't think of any other reason it wouldn't hold. This is with an mbc with a new spring and a Mac valve. Same thing.

I'm not sure about the interplay of the parts in your setup, but on a simple setup I was able to get the full 71lbs/min out of the turbo, and hold boost fine.

I think the issue is the bigger 44-46mm gates having a much larger valve area, but using the same springs as the smaller 38mm gates.

25psi of exhaust pressure pushing on a 1in^2 valve is 25 lbs of force. 25psi on a 2in^2 valve is 50 lbs of force.

I never had any issues holding boost with a 38mm turbosmart. With a 46mm precision and the same 14lb spring, I'm having boost taper with a much larger hot side, at lower boost.

My dsm82 had a block off plate on the hot side, and a wastegate off the manifold. It would actually creep to 22-23psi at 14psi gate pressure, it loved boost.

 

[91talonts1]

I will switch the fuel pump to a Walbro 450, that's no problem.

I was also concerned about the block, I'll go ahead and do arp rod bolts, new bearings, and at least new rings. Although, I have been contemplating EVO IX pistons, but I'm not sure if it's worth it? Thanks for all of the help guys.

Someone else said it a few posts above, but proper machining is crucial. Make sure the head and deck is resurfaced. I believe the MLS gaskets require a surface finish of 50Ra. Make sure all your bearing clearances are in spec, piston to wall clearance etc.
Not sure if you're doing the assembly yourself or having it done somewhere. But if you send your head/block anywhere for machining or anything make sure you choose someone familiar with the 4g63. There are lots of competent engine builders that are vendors on this site that would make great choices. There are also lots of half-*** machine shops out there that I wouldn't trust with my push mower.

 

[kmetiuk]

Someone else said it a few posts above, but proper machining is crucial. Make sure the head and deck is resurfaced. I believe the MLS gaskets require a surface finish of 50Ra. Make sure all your bearing clearances are in spec, piston to wall clearance etc.
Not sure if you're doing the assembly yourself or having it done somewhere. But if you send your head/block anywhere for machining or anything make sure you choose someone familiar with the 4g63. There are lots of competent engine builders that are vendors on this site that would make great choices. There are also lots of half-*** machine shops out there that I wouldn't trust with my push mower.

+1 on the maching for the MLS. They gotta be super flat with the exact right RA on the head and block to seal right. The comp gaskets are way easier to work with.

Personally I'd recomend a comp head gasket. Apparently lots of guys run +30psi on them all day long with no issues.

 

[Kapok6]

I'm not sure about the interplay of the parts in your setup, but on a simple setup I was able to get the full 71lbs/min out of the turbo, and hold boost fine.

I think the issue is the bigger 44-46mm gates having a much larger valve area, but using the same springs as the smaller 38mm gates.

25psi of exhaust pressure pushing on a 1in^2 valve is 25 lbs of force. 25psi on a 2in^2 valve is 50 lbs of force.

I never had any issues holding boost with a 38mm turbosmart. With a 46mm precision and the same 14lb spring, I'm having boost taper with a much larger hot side, at lower boost.

My dsm82 had a block off plate on the hot side, and a wastegate off the manifold. It would actually creep to 22-23psi at 14psi gate pressure, it loved boost.

That may play into the back pressure theory. If I'm running 37psi peak, then I have 37psi + 21psi pushing down to keep the WG valve closed. 58psi total. But if This turbine is restricting this particular setup, I may be seeing what, 70psi of back pressure or higher? In that case the back pressure is going to open the gate and not allow me to maintain the boost. Now...for the record, @bastarddsm 's fuel calculation shows me moving more air up top, at 31psi than I am at 37psi at 6000rpm, (69-70lbs/min) at 8250, so less volume isn't equating less aiflow. I'm just trying to figure out how to get the most out of this setup for now while keeping the parts happy and not over-spinning this snail.

+1 on the maching for the MLS. They gotta be super flat with the exact right RA on the head and block to seal right. The comp gaskets are way easier to work with.

Personally I'd recomend a comp head gasket. Apparently lots of guys run +30psi on them all day long with no issues.

I've been running a composite HG for years and I push them hard. Never had one fail in and of itself. Have had one act as a fuse once, as a result of detonation, and I am glad it did as it saved the block. Hence the reason I use them.

 

[SomeCallMeSquatch]

Someone else said it a few posts above, but proper machining is crucial. Make sure the head and deck is resurfaced. I believe the MLS gaskets require a surface finish of 50Ra. Make sure all your bearing clearances are in spec, piston to wall clearance etc.
Not sure if you're doing the assembly yourself or having it done somewhere. But if you send your head/block anywhere for machining or anything make sure you choose someone familiar with the 4g63. There are lots of competent engine builders that are vendors on this site that would make great choices. There are also lots of half-*** machine shops out there that I wouldn't trust with my push mower.

Yes for sure. There is a machine shop local that has always done my work, and I trust them. I'll have the block hot tanked, as well as decked. And if the head needs shaved I'll have that done too. I will be assembling the block myelf, and I trust myself completely. When something on this Shortblock fails, Ill do rods and pistons.

Another question for you guys, I'll be rebuilding the transmission myself with a Jacks kit, and I'd like to rebuild the transfer case as well, does anyone know where I can source parts? I'd also like to rebuild the rear end and add a EVO III LSD, where do I find parts for this?

 

[Kapok6]

Tim at TMZ might sell you the parts for the T-Case.

https://www.tmzperformance.com/dsm-transfer-case-rebuilds/

 

[donniekak]

That may play into the back pressure theory. If I'm running 37psi peak, then I have 37psi + 21psi pushing down to keep the WG valve closed. 58psi total. But if This turbine is restricting this particular setup, I may be seeing what, 70psi of back pressure or higher? In that case the back pressure is going to open the gate and not allow me to maintain the boost. Now...for the record, @bastarddsm 's fuel calculation shows me moving more air up top, at 31psi than I am at 37psi at 6000rpm, (69-70lbs/min) at 8250, so less volume isn't equating less aiflow. I'm just trying to figure out how to get the most out of this setup for now while keeping the parts happy and not over-spinning this snail.



I've been running a composite HG for years and I push them hard. Never had one fail in and of itself. Have had one act as a fuse once, as a result of detonation, and I am glad it did as it saved the block. Hence the reason I use them.

Unless you are running a line to the top wastegate port, none of the boost is helping keep the valve closed. Its all exhaust pressure vs spring pressure.

 

[Kapok6]

Unless you are running a line to the top wastegate port, none of the boost is helping keep the valve closed. Its all exhaust pressure vs spring pressure.

See, it was doing the same thing even when I had the mac valve controlling boost, which has a line to the top and bottom. Perhaps i'll go back to the mac valve and see if that makes a dif this time around.

 

[bastarddsm]

Your fuel is lacking.

1200cc injectors won't cut it with a single DW300.

1200cc injectors may cut it if you can bump your base fuel pressure up enough, and have enough pump to maintain flow at high pressure. I've seen people having really good luck with the Walbro 450s. You could probably pair one of them with 1200s and get to your power goal.

What are you doing that you need so much fuel? I ran a set of FIC 750's on a n/t regulator with a single non rewired 255 to 122mph traps back in the day. They were 100% idc, but they were 750's!

1200's and a 255hp is plenty of fuel for this guy. Being over 80%idc is not an issue as long as you have quality injectors. It was an issue back in the day when injectors could do weird things at high duty cycles. I believe the old bosch 160lbs cng injectors were famous for that, they flow would go down a bit as pulse-width went up at high duty cycle.

Decent modern injectors are good and stay nice and linear up to about 95% idc. Even then with E85 we run them soo fat, and the tuning window is so wide that it's rarely an issue.

My car cat at 100% idc all last year running between 137 and 141mph traps, with a composite gasket and 2 sets of FIC 750's, at 37psi. so only about 1400cc worth of injector. That's tickling 700whp, no way you need 1200's for 425whp.

Now I'm not saying that letting your injectors go static is a good idea all ways. For me, in these examples it was fine, I've got lots and lots of experience, I data-log every pass, the car was plenty rich, and I was just about out of turbo. So there's very little risk that suddenly it will move more air and lean out. For others asking for advice, keep it in the 90's.

 

[GST with PSI]

What are you doing that you need so much fuel?

E85, that's what.

OP said he wants to run E85 in his first post, and 750's certainly won't support that. 1200's and a 255hp on pump gas would be fine, and probably be a bit more than you need even. There are screenshots and logs in my build thread that say 1200's with a single DW300 won't get the job done on E85 either: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/gstwithpsis-galant-vr4-1837-2000.482807/page-10#post-153624230

Again, like I said in the post you quoted, 1200's can be made to work on E85 with a good fuel pump. However, a single DW300 isn't going to do it. It won't maintain adequate flow on E85 under high pressure. I personally don't like to run injectors past 85-90% DC, and would not recommend anyone else does either.

Unless you're pinching pennies, there's really no reason NOT to get an oversized injector for the build. Hell, I'll probably drop a set of FIC 1650s into the next stock DSM I buy just because they run so f***ing awesome.

 

[Kapok6]

I'd be careful what pumps you use with e85. I went through two Jay racing 341's in 85 that went out quick and I have seen 255's fail. I put the 450in and haven't had an issue yet.

 

[donniekak]

Plenty of cars making good power with 1200's and e85.
http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...-black-e85-93-inside-hybrid-boost-570whp.html

The problem is when people try to make power with a single non 450 pump.

 

[bastarddsm]

E85, that's what.

OP said he wants to run E85 in his first post, and 750's certainly won't support that. 1200's and a 255hp on pump gas would be fine, and probably be a bit more than you need even. There are screenshots and logs in my build thread that say 1200's with a single DW300 won't get the job done on E85 either: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/gstwithpsis-galant-vr4-1837-2000.482807/page-10#post-153624230

http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/gstwithpsis-galant-vr4-1837-2000.482807/page-10#post-153624230

I've never ran anything but E85 in my shitbox. Yes, 750's wally 255 E85 HX35 25psi, 122mph, and 400+whp. Stretched thin yes, but that would have been way comfortable at 20psi at 375whp.
375 on the upper end of an average 16g setup. 750's will absolutely support a 16g on E85.

Again, like I said in the post you quoted, 1200's can be made to work on E85 with a good fuel pump. However, a single DW300 isn't going to do it. It won't maintain adequate flow on E85 under high pressure. I personally don't like to run injectors past 85-90% DC, and would not recommend anyone else does either.

Yes, 1200 will work with a good fuel pump, so would a set of 950's. band aiding the small pump with a set of giant injectors doesn't fix anything. I have a sneaking suspicion that the DW300 sucks. I get the feeling that lots of DW's hype is just smoke and mirrors.

For reference, a single non punched 255hp is only enough pump for a set of 950's at like 25psi boost. Anything more than that and the pump isn't big enough.

Unless you're pinching pennies, there's really no reason NOT to get an oversized injector for the build. Hell, I'll probably drop a set of FIC 1650s into the next stock DSM I buy just because they run so f***ing awesome.

Money, why would you spend $800 on 1650's for this case when a $200 set of 950's would be more than adequate.
There is also a limit to how small the pulse width can be. You start getting down in pw and the increments get large in comparison to the total pw, now the resolution goes away.

 

[donniekak]

The fic high z 1650's drive like stock, even with pump gas. They are the best big injector out there. But $800+ is steep. I only have them in my car so I can max out the 3586. I'll have to install my other 450, but it'll work out fine.

 

[GST with PSI]

I've never ran anything but E85 in my sh**box. Yes, 750's wally 255 E85 HX35 25psi, 122mph, and 400+whp. Stretched thin yes, but that would have been way comfortable at 20psi at 375whp.
375 on the upper end of an average 16g setup. 750's will absolutely support a 16g on E85.

Yes, 1200 will work with a good fuel pump, so would a set of 950's. band aiding the small pump with a set of giant injectors doesn't fix anything. I have a sneaking suspicion that the DW300 sucks. I get the feeling that lots of DW's hype is just smoke and mirrors.

For reference, a single non punched 255hp is only enough pump for a set of 950's at like 25psi boost. Anything more than that and the pump isn't big enough.

Money, why would you spend $800 on 1650's for this case when a $200 set of 950's would be more than adequate.
There is also a limit to how small the pulse width can be. You start getting down in pw and the increments get large in comparison to the total pw, now the resolution goes away.

You can run your stuff on the ragged edge and say it's just stretched "thin" all you want. Nobody with any sense is going to purposely build a car like that. Sure, you can make damn near any injector "work" if you put enough pump behind it. If that's the way you like to build your stuff, then by all means, build on.

For everyone else in the world, buy an injector and pump that support the build. Personally, I'd buy an injector that allows for some cushion because I don't run my shit at 100% DC and call it good. Hence, my recommendation for a larger injector. Same goes for the pump.

Can 950's support a 68HTA at 425hp? Sure, in the right configuration. Can 1120's (or 1200's) support? Yep, sure can. The price difference between the two is literally $25 bucks (low z), so why would you even consider buying the smaller injector? Especially when I promise you both will be identical to tune...

The High Z injectors are an entirely different animal, which brings more cost. And, the 1650 High Z injectors are in a class of their own, which is why they are $800 bucks. If you've ever owned a set of 1650s, you understand why there's a $400 dollar price difference.

Regarding the pump, there's a $19 dollar difference between the Walbro 255 and 450. So, yet again, why the hell would you buy a 255?

There's a big difference between what works and what makes sense. Most of the stuff you're saying makes zero sense, IMO.

 

[Boomdeeze]

I run 1450's with a FIC Easy Tune Box, car drives like it has 450cc injectors on E85! I run a 255 in tank with the Aeromotive Tsunami inline though. Now to be honest, the 1450's were not bad to tune in on e85 so I would not hesitate to run them without the Easy Tune Box. I have had the 255 in tank with E85 for 5+ years and she is still kicking. The larger pumps people are talking about were not out when I bought the 255 or I would have gone that route.

I would buy the extra room for injectors, DSMLink can control them and leaves room for more(We all know it eventually comes).

 

[Vegas Smith]

Some people are minimalists to the extreme.

 

[FlyinTalon]

Same here 255lph and fic 1350's ran it that way for 5 years on e85 with no box and drove smooth as could be. I also made 440 on mustan dyno with 60% idc.

 

[SomeCallMeSquatch]

I will be doing the Walbro 450, but I'm seeing a lot of mixed signals regarding injectors. A very close friend made 600whp on 80lb injectors, and E85 with his turbo SBE 5.3L, and those are roughly 750cc correct? I don't think I'll have an issue with the 1200s.