Hopes and Dreams for 10's

[dsmchiz]

This is my list of parts that I am thinking about purchasing starting next spring / summer.

My Dream in the next couple years:

Top Secret NRS Spec 2.1L longblock (SBR)
AEM EMS
COIL ON PLUG (If needed)
SBR GT35r
950 cc fuel Injectors
Snow Performance boost cooler kit
Cast Exhaust Manifold (7cm gasket) w/ tial wastgate
SBR Heat Shield
SBR 1 gen race front mount intercooler kit (3 in pipe)
Axles (Drive Shaft Shop)
Drive shaft (Drive Shaft Shop)
Clutch (exedy or act)
Flywheel (same as clutch)
Suspension of some sort
Stage 4 Shep Trans
Brake rotors and pads

I already have:

Maf translator 3" Mas Air Sensor
50mm tial bov,
3" Bud's custom "turbo-back" Exhaust
Wallbero 255
Denso Radiator with 2 12" fans
Magnus Manifold w/ velocity stacks
Aeromative Fuel Pressure Regulator

I have already ran a 12.78 with a 1.67 60' before the magnus manifold and fuel pressure regulator. I want to be able to run tens and dyno at least 650 awhp. I know its big goals and big dreams (many people want these numbers) but I have had my dsm for 5 years and now i think its time to start my full upgrade, my car has 160,000 miles on it and its starting to break a little (thats an understatement) . It may take me awhile to do this but if i am going to do it i want to do it right (even if its one peice at a time).

I want a consistent car that will be reliable, basically meaning i dont want to spend all this cash and then break it within the first couple runs. I want to be able to bracket race and every now and then race in some of the king of street competitions we have here in northern texas. I have been bracket racing since i got the car 5 yrs ago but have not had the power to compete in the King of Street.

What am i missing from the list above? I have been looking at several long blocks and I know some dont think that the 2.1 liter is the way to go to reach my goals.

What is your opinions? I have been reading a couple threads about this block and it seems kinda fifty fifty on if i should do this or go with a different stroker.

I have some time before i get the money i need for this, but i want to have my ducks in a row (cause it is a big investment).

Am I going over board to reach my goals?

Is there a less expensive way to achieve this goal and still be reliable?

Thanks in advance for any advice.
I know you guys get questions like this all the time but i have done quite a bit of research and finally decided what i think would be a good set up (but i could be way way off)
Thanks again
Chad

 

[fourreGsixty3]

Well its good to hope . All Im saying is with axles and a driveshaft I would rather have OEM for say...10 runs, then switch out so you get the hang of driving with that kind of power, because I would rather see you break a 40$ OE axle then a 700$ axle. As for the tranny remark, I was talking about the stock tranny parts breaking under that much power, the shep stage 3 or 4, or the TRE race tranny will be able to handle the power. Also I like how you have taken your goal down a bit from 650awhp to 600awhp, but you may want to take it down a bit, more, like mid 500s. go take a look at Jake Montgomery's mod list (evil_eagle), that is generally what you are looking for in power, so his mod list would give you a good idea on what will be needed.

Dustin

 

[JayRolla]

Isnt most of the FP turbos mitsu housing. Ive heard they are just as good and will get you all the power you need. What actually makes it worse than a full garrett. They make way more than enough power. Is it that they spool slower or what?

 

[thekellbeast]

Isnt most of the FP turbos mitsu housing. Ive heard they are just as good and will get you all the power you need. What actually makes it worse than a full garrett. They make way more than enough power. Is it that they spool slower or what?

The FP Green and Red are both a 20g with just a swapped compressor section. It uses a mitsu housing, but it also uses a mitsu wheel. The point is that it uses a wheel in a housing it was designed for.

The FP3052 an 3065 have housings that were designed by FP to maximize the garrett wheel. They didn't make the same sacrifices that other bolt on housings did.

The existing 7cm^2 and 8cm^2 Mitsubishi turbine housings were not only too small for the GT30 turbine wheel, but mass production design compromises such as an offset non-symetric volute and poor material made them very undesirable. It was decided to abandon attempts to force them to work. Design work started on a totally new turbine housing. A truly perfect turbine housing worthy of the GT30 CHRA.

The result of the research is our race inspired totally symmetric volute scaled to perfectly match the dimensions of the GT30 turbine wheel.

I'm not trying to ride FP's nuts here. You end up paying a LOT for this sort of bolt-on compatibility. Vband housings, wastegate, custom O2 housing, etc. It just seems like you're going to an extreme lengths just to be able to use a mitsubishi manifold.

If you don't want to replace your exhaust manifold, this may be for you. If you're going with a tubular exhaust manifold, you might as well do it right and upgrade once.

I'm not trying to take a side in this argument, just trying to explain the whole ordeal. Here's a thread about bolt-on vs garrett that got locked. It still has some good information.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223697&highlight=hybrid+housing

 

[Dark_Horse]

I wouldn't get an A1000, they are so noisy you'll hate life if you use the car as a daily driver. If you want a single pump, go with the Bosch 044. Since you're a 1G, you can mount it in tank...Plus, they flow around 330lph.

Oh, and don't think of doing the 264/272 HKS cam combo with a large turbo. Go as big as you can stand on the cams. If you must do HKS, go straight 272/272. If I were you though, I'd look at FP2x or FP3x cams. You need dual valve springs to run em, but with a 35R, you can make power well above 7500rpm with the right cams; especially if you get a SMIM.

 

[SBstar]

Driving a potentially 10 second car as a daily driver isn't very smart anyways. You'll need some massive fuel delivery so I would say an A1000 is about right, of course if you do plan on DD it maybe you should reconsider your goals.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

I'd look at FP2x or FP3x cams.

The 2s yes, but the 3s are stroker specific cams with lobes of 104* which is where you want any cam to be if you have a stroker. Also the x's series are a little bit less agressive then the 2s, so you can get away with single spring crower's, or manley's. Also I doubt he cars about noise levels of the pump, if he will be trying for 600hp the turbo spooling will drowned that out real quick, and the A1000 is rated to 800 or 1000HP, I doubt that bosch will pump enough gas to keep the massive injectors happy.

You need dual valve springs to run em, but with a 35R, you can make power well above 7500rpm with the right cams; especially if you get a SMIM.

You will need to remove that stock rev limiter, and by the way he will need to get larger then 272s, they make there power in the 2800-7400rpm range, I would say Comp 300s, or Crower 64415, these will shine in the redline, but you wont really have bottom end.

Dustin

 

[Dark_Horse]

The FP2x is more aggressive than the FP2 is, hence the dual valve springs required. If you run any of the FPx cams, you won't lose as much bottom end due to increased valve acceleration. Quoted on forced performance website, "This "x" version of the FPCam2 increases valve acceleration and valve dwell near max lift to increase torque and widen the power band."

As for the bosch 044, it flows 330lph at 75psi. By my calculations, that's more than enough to hit over 1,000WHP.

 

[SBstar]

May I ask why he would need larger then HKS 272 cams? There are plenty of cars in the 9's with the 272's. And Darkhorse is correct the FP x series are more aggressive, and I would say no matter what you go with, get better valve springs and retainers.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

Sorry about that, last time I was on FPs site, I was looking at the FP3s, because Im going into a stroker set-up, and it did say that the FP3xs were a little less aggresive then the FP3s, but they have since change this. The 272s can go that high in rpm's but they will be less efficient up in the 8k range then a set of comp 300s, or cams intended to be in the 7k+ range.

Dustin

 

[Dark_Horse]

May I ask why he would need larger then HKS 272 cams? There are plenty of cars in the 9's with the 272's.

HKS are great cams, but FP2 and FP2x cams offer more top end. If you are reving above 7000rpm, the difference between a FP2 and the HKS 272 is huge (I think it was about 25WHP at 8K rpm). HKS is better below 6,000rpm. But above 6,000rpm, the FP2 is hands down the better choice.

With a turbo that will flow well above 6,000rpm, FP2 or FP2x is the way to go. Besides, in a drag car, who cares about bottom end?

I wish there was a back to back dyno of FP2 vs FP2x to see how much the "x" improves the bottom and top end.

 

[JayRolla]

The FP Green and Red are both a 20g with just a swapped compressor section. It uses a mitsu housing, but it also uses a mitsu wheel. The point is that it uses a wheel in a housing it was designed for.

The FP3052 an 3065 have housings that were designed by FP to maximize the garrett wheel. They didn't make the same sacrifices that other bolt on housings did.

Still what makes it so much better than the 20g housing. You make a good point but what actually is the turbo losing in performance. Longer spool or what? The green and red will still make the power you need right?

 

[SBstar]

I understand where you guys are coming from on the FP cams but what I meant was that 272's are still plenty to get you where you want to go. Of course for the price difference you might as well go with the FP's which is the point I think you're trying to get across.

 

[92awddsm]

As for the bosch 044, it flows 330lph at 75psi. By my calculations, that's more than enough to hit over 1,000WHP.

Most of us here will not be running 75psi fuel pressure. On a 1g, that would be at 38psi boost and on a 2g, it would be at 32psi boost.

These next statements are based off of the information you gave about the 044 bosch:

I also read somewhere(cant remember where but I will post it when I find it) that the bosch internal bypass opens around 70 psi of fuel pressure. Why rate a pump at 75 when that exceeds the useable pressure?

And the a1000 flows more than the bosch(600gal/hr@45psi vs 87gal/hr@75psi) and it is only reccomended up to 800hp on fuel injected, forced induction engines. Knowing that, I wouldnt even run the 330 on 500whp. You might get away with it but why go cheap if you are trying to build a 10sec car? The a1000 is about $300. How much is the bosch?

Now that I have looked around, this is what I found out about the bosh 044:
The Bosch "044" Motorsport pump is the highest flowing of the Bosch pumps often used in Bosch Motorsport applications - flow rating of 330 l/hr at 55psi and 200 l/hr at 73.5 PSI.

 

[qtxdevilz]

Most of us here will not be running 75psi fuel pressure. On a 1g, that would be at 38psi boost and on a 2g, it would be at 32psi boost.

These next statements are based off of the information you gave about the 044 bosch:

I also read somewhere(cant remember where but I will post it when I find it) that the bosch internal bypass opens around 70 psi of fuel pressure. Why rate a pump at 75 when that exceeds the useable pressure?

And the a1000 flows more than the bosch(600gal/hr@45psi vs 87gal/hr@75psi) and it is only reccomended up to 800hp on fuel injected, forced induction engines. Knowing that, I wouldnt even run the 330 on 500whp. You might get away with it but why go cheap if you are trying to build a 10sec car? The a1000 is about $300. How much is the bosch?

Now that I have looked around, this is what I found out about the bosh 044:
The Bosch "044" Motorsport pump is the highest flowing of the Bosch pumps often used in Bosch Motorsport applications - flow rating of 330 l/hr at 55psi and 200 l/hr at 73.5 PSI.

you have a pm dude...

 

[SBstar]

Still what makes it so much better than the 20g housing. You make a good point but what actually is the turbo losing in performance. Longer spool or what? The green and red will still make the power you need right?

Lets just say its easier with a larger better flowing turbo. Basically every turbo has a flow rate, the more air it will flow the more power it can produce at a given boost level (I"m skipping many details here but you can do a search if you really want the details or someone can fill you in with more knowledge then me since I'm too lazy to search right now) Obviously it would be easier to reach your goals with say a FP3065 then with a 20G turbo providing you have the right supporting mods.

 

[Dark_Horse]

If you are planning on running 10's, you will be running above 30psi though. You pulled the info for the regular 044, the pump I was talking about is summed up below. I guess it has a different name, I was unaware of that.

Bosch B 261 205 413

This pump is the same pump as the 044, but this pump is flow tested and rated at 116 PSI instead of 72.5 PSI. What Bosch does is flow some of the pumps and sort them out. This pump they will guarantee to flow its rated capacity at 116 PSI instead of 72.5 PSI. Since lower peressure generally means more flow, all else equal, I think this pump will outflow the 044 at typical working rail pressures (60 - 80 PSI) or at least maintain a high flow rate if rail pressures above 72.5 PSI are required in high boost / high HP applications.

Bosch Rating: 200 LPH at 116 PSI and 13.5 V

Bosch Approximate Crank HP rating at 116 PSI and 13.5 V: 750 HP

Best Price I Found: $382.78

A side note on this pump is that it is only available from a Bosch Motorsports dealer, which is different than a regular shop that sells Bosch products.

Obviously at lower pressures the pumps will flow more volume. Also, with higher voltage, the pump will flow more volume. Therefore, it is apparant that this pump can support more power than the Bosch Motorsports representative indicated given more favorable conditions (less pressure and more voltage).

 

[92awddsm]

Bosch B 261 205 413


Bosch Rating: 200 LPH at 116 PSI and 13.5 V
Bosch Approximate Crank HP rating at 116 PSI and 13.5 V: 750 HP

There is no way that this pump will support 750 hp @ 116psi and only 200lph of flow.

Nice copy and paste on that. I found the same link.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

I think I would go with the A1000 that is 1)cheaper and 2)has better flow for the goals he wants.

Dustin

 

[Dark_Horse]

Nice copy and paste on that. I found the same link.

I thought you'd enjoy that.

I was only saying that to run 10's, it was an option if you didn't want to run the A1000 or something similar. Since it is possible to have a 10 second DSM that is a daily driver, the noise of the A1000 really makes daily driving the car not too much fun. I know a few people that have ditched their A1000 because it was too noisy to run in a daily driver.

As for the Bosch, if it supports 200lph at 116psi, then imagine how much it supports at 75psi. Even using a fixed 2.13lph drop in flow per psi added, at 75psi, it still flows about 287 lph.

Also, using 11hp per lb/min of air, you can run pretty darn close to 750hp on 200lph of flow...Of course, this is assuming the best possible tune. In reality though, most people can not extract 11hp per lb/min, so you are correct, 200lph does not support 750hp for most people.