High Oil Pressure

[Turbo Talon DL]

Ok, I spent quite a few hours searching through a bunch of mostly useless threads that didnt answer my question. I had a 6 bolt rebuilt for me with forged internals, with 0.015 bearing clearances and Clevite bearings. My oil pressure is sky high like whoa! Cruising its almost to the H line. However wide the H division on the stock gauge is, thats how far the needle is from the H line. I started it up a couple days ago HOPING to go on another drive but started gushing oil on my belt, cam gears, and the ground. The oil is now leaking out of my belt tensioner bolt holes of all places I primed the engine with an electric drill before i put it in last Saturday. No leaks at all, NONE, not a single drip. Would my oil pressure Have something to do with this problem? I thought of using nylon and/or copper crush washers around the bolts to try and prevent the oil leak. Im using Advance Auto 10w40 right now for break-in. The motor has a whole whopping 5 miles now also. I'd like helpful input.

 

[DSMJim]

There is a good way to solve your high oil pressure issue. I took this pic just now to help you out. You may or may not know about this, so if you do, sorry about that.

This is the oil filter housing where it bolts onto your block. In red there is that hole in the center. Inside there is a "piston" and a spring thats held in by the bolt with the yellow arrow pointing at it. This is where oil pressure is bled off. When pressure gets to a certian point it pushes back on the piston compressing the spring as pressure builds. Eventually the piston moves back far enough and oil is let through that hole in the center of the red circle and allowed to drain back into the block, kind of like a wastegate.

What we want to do is make it let oil pressure out earlier. Pull the bolt out and the spring and piston. That hole where you can see part of the piston through used to be perfectly round. I ported it oval out closer to the head of the piston by an 1/8th of an inch. THe piston goes pretty far back inside there so you have lots to work with. Put your dremel inside there and bring the hole forward. Be careful not to hit the porting tool on the surface that seals. Make the hole ovalish so that it uncovers more of the piston. What will happen is the piston will not have to move as far before it starts bleeding off oil pressure now. A small amount makes a good difference.

Make sure you clean it out really well and be careful to not get burs inside that will cause the piston to hang up. Clean it well then test the piston with your finger to make sure it slides back and forth in there. Lube it up with a touch of oil and re-install.

You can use RTV to put the housing back on it wont leak, no problems there. You will have to drain your coolant (if your watercooled) and oil before pulling the housing off. One bolt is hidden under the lower timing belt cover, but all I had to do was take off the pully and a few of the bolts and I was able to pry the cover forward enough to get at the last bolt. They are held on with 16lbs/ft so there is worry about getting it tight enough, thats easy.

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

There is a good way to solve your high oil pressure issue. I took this pic just now to help you out. You may or may not know about this, so if you do, sorry about that.

This is the oil filter housing where it bolts onto your block. In red there is that hole in the center. Inside there is a "piston" and a spring thats held in by the bolt with the yellow arrow pointing at it. This is where oil pressure is bled off. When pressure gets to a certian point it pushes back on the piston compressing the spring as pressure builds. Eventually the piston moves back far enough and oil is let through that hole in the center of the red circle and allowed to drain back into the block, kind of like a wastegate.

What we want to do is make it let oil pressure out earlier. Pull the bolt out and the spring and piston. That hole where you can see part of the piston through used to be perfectly round. I ported it oval out closer to the head of the piston by an 1/8th of an inch. THe piston goes pretty far back inside there so you have lots to work with. Put your dremel inside there and bring the hole forward. Be careful not to hit the porting tool on the surface that seals. Make the hole ovalish so that it uncovers more of the piston. What will happen is the piston will not have to move as far before it starts bleeding off oil pressure now. A small amount makes a good difference.

Make sure you clean it out really well and be careful to not get burs inside that will cause the piston to hang up. Clean it well then test the piston with your finger to make sure it slides back and forth in there. Lube it up with a touch of oil and re-install.

You can use RTV to put the housing back on it wont leak, no problems there. You will have to drain your coolant (if your watercooled) and oil before pulling the housing off. One bolt is hidden under the lower timing belt cover, but all I had to do was take off the pully and a few of the bolts and I was able to pry the cover forward enough to get at the last bolt. They are held on with 16lbs/ft so there is worry about getting it tight enough, thats easy.

Dont say sorry because you're trying to help me!! ! I appreciate all input to my troubles. I've read about the pressure relief mod, and have thought of it. I'd like to maybe, try a thinner oil? Next pay check I'll invest in a dremal. How high was your oil pressure when you needed this mod?

 

[DSMJim]

Dont say sorry because you're trying to help me!! ! I appreciate all input to my troubles. I've read about the pressure relief mod, and have thought of it. I'd like to maybe, try a thinner oil? Next pay check I'll invest in a dremal. How high was your oil pressure when you needed this mod?

I did it the same time as my motor so everything stayed normal. Even with the BS shafts removed on the new motor I did the releif mod and the gauge is in the same spot now which is good.

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

I fixed the leak, I ended up getting some copper crush washers and using them on the tensioner bolts WTF (yeah). I used an electric drill to spin the oil pump and inspected for leaks. Im hoping the oil pressure will drop some as the pump/motor break in more.

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

Well, I am STILL leaking oil. Its not all over my timing belt this time. It was dripping off my oil filter(not worried about that) and somewhere else It wasnt dripping like it was before I (supposedly) fixed the last leaks I think I need to invest some time into the pressure relief mod. I took the car on a 6 mile drive at 1 A.M. (ish) and put some good, break-in miles on it. Only reason I put 6 miles on it was because I overheated my stock dinky 1 piston caliper brakes and had no power left But seriously, would high oil pressure cause leaks to appear like that? Would it blow out the stock oil pump/front case assy. gasket? If I just switched to thinner oil, could some of this go away?
(IM HURTIN NOW)

 

[DSMJim]

Thinner oil will definately help. You are using the larger 1G oil filter too right? Its the same size around the the spot where it screws on, not smaller like the 2G filter.

IF your still pushing oil out, do the releif mod. It's really not that hard to get that piece off. I was able to remove it with only draining the coolant, oil and taking the pullie off. I unscrewd about 5-6 lower bolts on the timing belt cover just enough that I coudl try it out and get at that last bolt. SHouldn't be that big a deal for you.

 

[TSIfreek]

Put some thread sealant on the 2 plugs above the oil filter one of the ports would feed the turbo and the other is oil going into the filter. They are removed by a big alen wrench. I had the same problem and all it was was I didnt use sealant on the threads. I am running no balance shafts as well and mobil 1 10/30 and see over 100 psi when I really get on it. I have no leaks but this mod should be done. There are many guys outhere running high oil pressure with no problems.
A lighter oil will leak more. You will see less psi oil pressure at idle but high rpms it should be the same and thats were your problem is.

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

Im not leaking oil from those allen screw fitting things. I was dripping a little off the filter because Im scared of over-tightening it. Its the 1g sized oil filter, its just a cheapie Fram right now till I do another oil change. Then the good Purolator is going on there. I didnt look at the car today, Im just taking a break from it and getting some thoughts and ideas together as to how im going to correct these annoying little issues. How would thinner oil leak more? I thought that heavier oil yeilded higher oil pressure. Now my builder is telling me that my oil pressure had nothing to do with the leaks that im having, and that maybe I need to drop the pan and re-install the pump. That would require an entire day and new gasket. Im tired of removing my timing belt also. This time when it was leaking it wasnt dripping as bad, so its gotta be leaking from a different place. Fix one, another one springs. My luck, huh? Is it bad to have such high oil pressure or does it help with the bearing load at high hp/rpm? Is there some performance related issue to run high(er) oil pressure? Im only running 9psi right now for the break-in, not for an extremely fast car.

 

[DSMJim]

High oil pressure is bad the same as low oil pressure. To start off, it loves to spring leaks which you have found. Kinda like intercooler pipes, they never blow off until you run that higher boost level you have never run before, then pow, off they come. It's hard on your turbocharger because it has to deal with larger volumes of higher pressure oil and many other components on the car.

I heard Marco say once that high oil pressure was bad for the 4G63 and he has tried building race motors both ways with high and low and neither worked out.

 

[defrag010]

.015" bearing clearance, and the engine wouldn't run for 30 seconds. You probably meant .0015" clearance, which is on the Real tight end of clearance spec. That's why your oil pressure is so high. Clearance should be around .0028".

 

[TSIfreek]

.015" bearing clearance, and the engine wouldn't run for 30 seconds. You probably meant .0015" clearance, which is on the Real tight end of clearance spec. That's why your oil pressure is so high. Clearance should be around .0028".

That is not correct at all. His oil pressure situation has nothing to do with the bearing clearances. The spec for rod and main bearings is .0008-.0015. His problem has to do with removing the BS and blocking the oil galorys in the block to feed the BS bearings.
His bearing clearances are perfect I have all mine at .0015 as well. Clearances are diffrent on a domestic motor than a V8 american motor.

 

[sbiggi]

My brothers car had supper high oil pressure after a rebuild.

Did all the porting, tried a different relief spring. Nothing worked.

Ended finding that there was silicon stuck in the head. The high pressure squirter's on the end were plugged and had the silicon sticking out of them.

Pulled that out and took out the hex plugs on the end and let the oil push out the other crap.
Problem solved.

Now his oil pressure is right were it is supposed to be.


-Seth

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

My brothers car had supper high oil pressure after a rebuild.

Did all the porting, tried a different relief spring. Nothing worked.

Ended finding that there was silicon stuck in the head. The high pressure squirter's on the end were plugged and had the silicon sticking out of them.

Pulled that out and took out the hex plugs on the end and let the oil push out the other crap.
Problem solved.

Now his oil pressure is right were it is supposed to be.


-Seth

Thats how i felt just now when you said silicone stuck in the head I dont get it, how would that happen? WTF I primed my oil galleries and my engine to high hell!! Anything stuck in there would have been noticed before I put the motor in the car. I had the valve cover off when I was spinning the oil pump. How fast does the oil pump sprocket spin in relation to the crank shaft? I have an electric drill and used a 9/16 socket to spin the pump and look for leaks, not enough pressure to duplicate the problem I have which means, I cant fix anything. Whatever psi oil pressure is when the stock gauge reads half way up is where the needle is when I spun it with the drill, less than 1000rpm. When hot and running above 3000rpm, it last ran almost to the H line It runs more pressure hot than cold what the? WTF

 

[pneumo]

Excess silicone can be squeezed out from the front cover gasket IF you use too much. This could also explain the leaks. You didn't mention how much silicone (aka RTV) you used, so take this for what it's worth. When installing the front cover gasket you only need a small dab on the upper corners to hold the gasket in place until you put the front case on. Any more than that and the gasket could slide a little bit when tightening the front case. Definately don't use a full coating of RTV on the gasket. That's one thing I learned the hard way; use RTV or a gasket, but not both. RTV+gasket = leaking gasket.

Since it's flat, thin and large, it also helps to use a torque sequence when tightening the front case. I know there isn't one listed in the manual, but in your case every little bit helps. Start tightening the bolts from the center, closest to the crank, and work your way out. It's the same theory behind the head torquing sequence. The idea is to flatten the gasket and squeeze it outward, sort of like a rolling pin flattening some dough. If you begin at the outside and go inward, the gasket could bunch up in the center and form a crease, or the stress on the case could cause it to arch slightly between bolts. Just start with the bolt that's closest to the crank and work your way outwards. HTH

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

I didnt use any rtv on the gasket for the oil pump, didnt wanna risk a sliver of the stuff getting pumped into an oil squirter, between a bearing, or whatever else you can think of...
I didnt use a torque sequence, but didnt tighten them down until i had all of them on, seated onto the pump. It doesnt leak oil at idle oil pressure, like when the gauge is half way up....it only leaks when I get on it, above 3000ish RPMs. I would fix a leak, start the car, warm it up for a break-in run, and check for leaks. Letting the car idle for 5-7 min above 2000rpm is plenty of time for a leak to occur. No leaks were present, so I'd do a break-in drive, taking it up to max 5500rpm and a coast-down to about 3000rpm, then repeat a few times or until brakes got hot. By then, i'd have oil all over the place, outside of the lower timing cover and on timing belt/cam gears. Im easily running over 100psi at high(er) rpm. Every time i've gone in and fixed a leak, which is twice now, I'd develop another (untraceable) one... I already explained how I would look for leaks. Im doing the oil pressure relief port this weekend, so we'll see what happens there. :-S...
If I were to loosen, then re-torque the front case bolts, would that do any good or not? I never used any special torque sequence before and I didnt have leaks, but then again, I wasnt running so much oil pressure either.

 

[TSIfreek]

You may have a leak coming form your oil pump seal (behind the oil pump sprocket) on the front cover or someother front cover leak you cant see becuse the timing belt cover is on.

 

[2-0turbo]

That is not correct at all. His oil pressure situation has nothing to do with the bearing clearances. The spec for rod and main bearings is .0008-.0015. His problem has to do with removing the BS and blocking the oil galorys in the block to feed the BS bearings.
His bearing clearances are perfect I have all mine at .0015 as well. Clearances are diffrent on a domestic motor than a V8 american motor.

Since we don't really know what is going on with this guys motor, we can't say for sure what is causing his high oil pressure problem. You are absolutely incorrect on the above. The oil clearances have EVERYTHING to do with your oil pressure. Don't beleive me? Leave a balance shaft bearing out and see how much pressure you build. This is the main reason I tell people to run the factory recommended oil viscosity. What do you think the clearances in those Honda engines are that use 5W-20 oil? I can tell you they are very tight. Try and run 20W-50 through those and you'll make great oil pressure, no doubt. You'll also have almost zero FLOW through the bearings which will cause excessive heat and lead to problems. Oil not only lubricates, but removes heat from the bearings caused by shearing the oil in the bearing. That creates heat.

I have my oil clearances at 0.002 and my thrust at 0.004". I make 83 lbs of oil pressure going down the road at 3000 RPM. I have done the oil relief mod and enlarged the hole during my rebuild. The previous comment about high oil pressure being bad: I'm not sure what pressure is too high. I would love to pick Marco's brain on that one.

I feel my oil pressure is high, but since I'm running 10W-30 oil, it gives me good confindence that I am flowing a lot of oil through my bearings which I like.

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

You may have a leak coming form your oil pump seal (behind the oil pump sprocket) on the front cover or someother front cover leak you cant see becuse the timing belt cover is on.

P.S. I removed everything while I was looking for leaks. The seals are brand new, and dont leak. I spun the oil pump with a drill and builds enough pressure to make a bad seal leak. Im going to do the pressure relief mod today, I was thinking about not so much enlarging the port, but just making it open earlier like Jim said. I want to port it more forward, sorta' making it into an oval. How's that sound? I talked with Suparata, who built my motor and we discussed my clearances. I believe he said my mains were .0025 and my rods were .00225. I could be slightly wrong on the clearances, but they're pretty close to what we talked about. I dont remember if its tighter than stock spec or not, but he said it was a safe enough clearance for what I want to use the motor for.

 

[TSIfreek]

The bearing clearaces are on the loose side but thats fine on a high HP engine that sees high rpms like ours do. Mitch it a great guy and totally trustworthy. I had my block machined there and all work is top notch. That motor will last you many years. My clearances are at .0015 -.0017 on all the bearings and thats right in the middle. looser bearing clearances will lower the oil temp and will see slightly lower oil pressure and is what you are looking for on your motor. What pressure do you have at Idle @ what RPM?? I think stock settings are as tight as .0008 - .0015

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

The bearing clearaces are on the loose side but thats fine on a high HP engine that sees high rpms like ours do. Mitch it a great guy and totally trustworthy. I had my block machined there and all work is top notch. That motor will last you many years. My clearances are at .0015 -.0017 on all the bearings and thats right in the middle. looser bearing clearances will lower the oil temp and will see slightly lower oil pressure and is what you are looking for on your motor. What pressure do you have at Idle @ what RPM?? I think stock settings are as tight as .0008 - .0015

I cant say for sure on idle oil pressure because I dont have an aftermarket gauge yet but the needle is straight up and down at idle and almost to the H line above 3000rpm

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

Well, my oil pressure is under control now. I ported the relief valve forward a little, and its slightly lower now. My leak, turns out to be my front main seal.. WTF I dont understand how that happened I was extra careful putting it all together, i oiled the seal and everything before i assembled it. Oh well, I know what im doing this week, dropping the pan and pulling the front case... This thread can be closed now....

 

[DSMJim]

So you ported the valve like I said huh. I figured that would help your problem. Now just fix that front cover and you'll be all set... The seal probablly blew from all the high oil pressure.

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

So you ported the valve like I said huh. I figured that would help your problem. Now just fix that front cover and you'll be all set... The seal probablly blew from all the high oil pressure.

I was thinking the same thing, seeing how that seal had LESS than 300 miles on it and all... Is that a common occurance with high oil pressure? To blow seals out?

Of course I ported the valve like you suggested, most of you guys know 10 times what I know about this stuff. Now, if I could just get this TPS straightened out...

 

[Suparata]

I’ve heard this “too high oil pressure” so many times in this thread that my head hurts!
How much “looser” than 2.5 thou would you like to have the mains set on a street application? The whole idea of having leaks in the front case area because of excessive oil pressure is wrong. I’ve seen engines running almost 150PSI oil pressure at high RPM and they were not leaking because of that. However that should be avoided by porting the pressure relief some especially when the engine will see high RPM . The only place it can leak from high oil pressure is on the high pressure side in the front case which does not happen if the front case is installed correctly and the gasket and mating surfaces are in good shape. That’s why I put this picture http://www.engintecs.com/gallery/album14/Frontcase_001 up to help guys with the front case install. But sometimes mistakes can be made besides not tightening all the bolts only after the oil filter housing is installed or using silicone sealant in that area.
Now it can leak from certain places like the main seal if there is something wrong with it and that is what I’ve told Reuben to look for. His did run only 300 miles but it did that on an engine that trashed all bearings because of lack of oil. That certainly did not do any favor to the seal running with all the abrasive material in the oil.
How much oil pressure will that seal see? I would say no more than crank case pressure because it is wide open in that area so the oil that escapes the main bearing will not create “too much oil pressure” in a big pool! And if the clearance on the mains would be less (therefore a higher reading on the gauge) there would be even less oil to fill that “empty” space. If there would be a concern about too much oil getting to the front main seal, there would be a plate or some sort of an “oil slinger” there but it is not an issue.
Another common mistake is to forget to oil the seal before assembly which can lead to premature failure because of a burnt seal.

Bottom line is that when something like this happens you only have 2 choices. Find and fix what’s wrong or reinstall everything again with new seals and gaskets and that is what I’ve told you from the very beginning didn’t I?
There is always a reason but you have to look for it in the right place. Sounds familiar?
“Ok Mitch, I found out my issue. I ported out the pressure relief mod, and it lowered the pressure some, not too much, but a little, I feel better about it now. BUT, you were right to mention the front main seal. Somehow for whatever reason, it leaks. I
started up the car with the timing belt cover off like you suggested, and what I had planned on doing, I was looking around the timing belt area, and oil was spraying off onto the oil pan coming from the front main. Took a whole 3 min. of the engine running to figure that out.”

So next time I hear oil pressure data I want numbers not what a stock gauge shows, OK?