high compresson pistons and e85

[turbo addict]

I am planning on building a motor for my DD a 1989 mirage turbo 1.6L with an E316G. I want to run higher compression as I am limited on the turbo and would like to get the most out of my setup. I was thinking of going around 11to1 compression give or take, but I am curious what others think. What experience have others had with their setups. I currently run 40psi on me E316g and have pushed it a little farther once or twice. I also want to know if I will have high boost problems with that high of compression.

Thanks for you input.

 

[caboose]

yeah i really dont think that you will be able to run 40psi with 11:1 compression ratio pistons, it will blow up.

 

[turbo addict]

yeah i really dont think that you will be able to run 40psi with 11:1 compression ratio pistons, it will blow up.

Conventional thought would argee but I was running up to 50psi and 28* or more of timing on stock bottom end. This is why I made this post.

My friend has a 10.0to1 2.4 that we will be playing with this spring, but I was hoping to hear from some people before then.

 

[talon20g]

conventional thought would argee but i was running up to 50psi and 28* or more of timing on stock bottom end. This is why i made this post.

My friend has a 10.0to1 2.4 that we will be playing with this spring, but i was hoping to hear from some people before then.

.....

 

[caboose]

what kind of turbo are you using???

 

[turbo addict]

what kind of turbo are you using???

E316g ported to flow/ induce creep. Forrester intake manifold, FP exhaust manifold. 4" exhaust. fp2 cams.... other stuff.

It would peak at 50psi but would get spark blowout with crappy plugs that I had. (I have better ones now) I had been running around 40-42psi with the new plugs and have a few more tricks to get my boost back up but it has been hovering around Zero degrees here and I took all of the teeth off of 5th on a highway pull toward the end of fall. Car pulled well and would keep up with my friends supercharged 2005viper up to 180mph. (all the faster I would go "safely").

I was very happy with the car but I broke a rod bolt on the 1.6liter. I have a 2.0 in it now but it has Too much torque and not enough topend.

I want to go back to the 1.6liter with pistons and rods.

I would also like to get a little more mileage out of it. I would get about 23mpg on E85 combined city highway driving but my 5th gear was on the small side and I am working on doing a awd 5th in my front drive tranny now.

I am hoping that the compession will help with the mpg's as well.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

I plan on running 10.5:1

 

[abaum565]

I've read threads where guys were running 10:1 on e85 past 30 psi with larger turbos. I would say it should work if you know what you are doing and know how to tune.

My bigger question is how is that small turbo still efficient at those levels, mine old e316g didn't do anything for me past 30psi. If you need to stay stock appearing, I would look into upgraded comp wheels and look into some custom turbine work.

Also, there comes a point where too much timing will actually hinder performance, even if you are not getting detonation. Usually that's around 20-24* from what I've read. Very interesting that you were running 28*.

I find this post in general to be very intriguing. Not many people push that turbo to that level with that timing. Do you have any logs of airflow at 40 and 50 psi?

 

[turbo addict]

I've read threads where guys were running 10:1 on e85 past 30 psi with larger turbos. I would say it should work if you know what you are doing and know how to tune.

My bigger question is how is that small turbo still efficient at those levels, mine old e316g didn't do anything for me past 30psi. If you need to stay stock appearing, I would look into upgraded comp wheels and look into some custom turbine work.

Also, there comes a point where too much timing will actually hinder performance, even if you are not getting detonation. Usually that's around 20-24* from what I've read. Very interesting that you were running 28*.

I find this post in general to be very intriguing. Not many people push that turbo to that level with that timing. Do you have any logs of airflow at 40 and 50 psi?

Remember that this was on a 1.6 liter. It would pull up to redline (8800rpm).

I have been playing with many different things to try to get the setup to work. The exhaust was a big factor. With the 2.0liter in and 3" side exit (in front of the rear wheel) and with a muffler it would only make 35psi. When I built the 4" downpipe back not changing anything else it went up to 40psi. I need to get a 4" muffler and just ditch the 3".

I have been playing with variations of this on the mirage since 2002. The intake was another big help and made large gains.
Also room is a major factor as the mirage has very limited space.
I am going to try an 8cm turbine housing and see if that helps.

The car was almost perfect with the 1.6 toward the end of its life. I had full angry boost at 4200rpm and pulled to 8800. Now the 2.0 is full boost in the 3100 range and starts to run out of steam around 6600rpm. (40psi till then and drops to 30psi past 7300.

And there was a HUGE difference bewteen 30psi and 40psi on the 1.6liter. 2.0 liter too but less so.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Interesting... Two things im raising my eyebrow about, for one I dont see how you stripped 5th gear and also I dont understand why youd want less displacement, keep the 2.0. The 2.0 should provide more torque but keep the same top end or better over the 1.6, unless you did something to restrict flow of the head. The 2.0 should always flow better than a 1.6ltr not just at lower rpms, especially given you were just revving out sub 9k rpm which a 2 liter is well capable of so I dont understand that part. Also, If I didnt hit 40+ psi myself on my e316g i wouldnt have believed you managed to hit 50psi on yours, that open 4in exhaust really will cause that. I run open DP. A friend of mines hasa 35r that he cant control the boost on anymore when he upgraded to a 4in DP. It really makes a difference. My evo316g blew shortly after those high boost pulls, crazy yours can handle 50psi for so long... Im curious what your car dynos, and what that forrester intake did for you. I like the way my Hawver intake felt with my 16g.Also ideally I would run 11.1 compression with ethanol regardless the turbo, I just dont have the time or money to do it on my car...

 

[e85_4g63]

I was running up to 50psi and 28* or more of timing on stock bottom end.

I'm calling BS on this... got a dyno sheet, log with MAP sensor, or anything to prove this?

 

[turbo addict]

I'm calling BS on this... got a dyno sheet, log with MAP sensor, or anything to prove this?

50psi was spiking, It was holding 40psi to 40+ on the 1.6 liter till 8800rpm. I have a very free flowing intake and exhaust. 3" directly bolted to the turbine housing withan exteranl dump (o2 eliminator and 4" after the downpipe.

 

[e85_4g63]

50psi was spiking, It was holding 40psi to 40+ on the 1.6 liter till 8800rpm. I have a very free flowing intake and exhaust. 3" directly bolted to the turbine housing withan exteranl dump (o2 eliminator and 4" after the downpipe.

I thought you where saying your car was holding 50 psi, my bad.

 

[viperlp01]

It is really suprising that you can push that far out of the compressor map.. It kinda seems pointless to push that much boost with intake temps that are close to 200 degrees or higher... But whatever ... You defidently over spin the shit out of the turbo...

With that said Im sure you could run compression that high.. The only problem you might have is that your cylinder pressure is going to be crazy pusing 40+ psi with intake temps that high.. You might be the guy to make e85 knock ...

 

[Black_Bullet]

With only a 16g, I think the motor would give before making e85 knock...
Obviously to run higher compression the timing will have to be tuned accordingly, but other than that nothing else changes, same boost and afr can be applied, but the car will have a better thermal efficiency with the higher compression, and more power will be made per lb of boost so it will definitely give you power you wouldnt have been able to make other wise. Id be willing to bet jumping up to 11.1 CR with everything dialed in could net another 40-50awhp and torque across the board on top of what you already had ! That gain would be huge on a near maxed out e316g setup scraping for more...

 

[turbo addict]

Ya I think I'm going to see what it can do with 11to1 and if worse comes to worse I can swap out to a 2.0liter head and lower the compression if it doesn't work how I want.

Also on a side note I dont think that my intake temps get that high, The turbo to intercooler pipe gets quite hot for sure but the intercooler to intake manifold and the intake manifold itself never gets over warm to the touch; even after multiple topspeed runs. The intercooler works very well and never heatsoaks as it is a liquid to air and I have a civic radiator and a 5 gallon cell of fluid.

 

[viperlp01]

Well that makes sense .. I would find it hard to cool down turbo outlet temps in the 200*+ with just an air-air intercooler.. Forcing that many air molecules in that little outlet really creates alot of friction and heat..

 

[habitatguy187]

You guys also have to remember that he can run more boost because the motor is smaller. Throw a 16g on cummins and watch it struggle to hit 15psi. Even though he's running so much boost I doubt that it's much more hp, if any than he could acheive with a 2.0 at lower boost.

 

[Cassera]

That sounds insane to run that much compression with that much psi. Lmao to think I was scared of bumping the compression of a 1g gsx to 8:1 or 9:1 running 25lbs of boost. (on pump gas)

 

[Black_Bullet]

Ya I think I'm going to see what it can do with 11to1 and if worse comes to worse I can swap out to a 2.0liter head and lower the compression if it doesn't work how I want.

Also on a side note I dont think that my intake temps get that high, The turbo to intercooler pipe gets quite hot for sure but the intercooler to intake manifold and the intake manifold itself never gets over warm to the touch; even after multiple topspeed runs. The intercooler works very well and never heatsoaks as it is a liquid to air and I have a civic radiator and a 5 gallon cell of fluid.

Aha, so you have almost no intercooler piping basically.. Maybe another reason you reach such a high psi..

 

[turbo addict]

Aha, so you have almost no intercooler piping basically.. Maybe another reason you reach such a high psi..

ya, HKS tb elbow, and the bolton outlet pipe from the turbo included I have less than 2 feet of pipe. and a total of 2 couplers one on each side of the intercooler as of now.

You guys also have to remember that he can run more boost because the motor is smaller. Throw a 16g on cummins and watch it struggle to hit 15psi. Even though he's running so much boost I doubt that it's much more hp, if any than he could acheive with a 2.0 at lower boost.

this is also true the turbo will only flow so much, but with the power hitting later in the rev range it is more usable as I can stay in a gear much longer (aka higher speed).

Plus I am trying to get some mpg out of it; that is another reason I want the 1.6 and the 11to1. The goal is 30mph combined city/highway with E85 and still roll a c6ZO6 on the interstate;-)

 

[Black_Bullet]

Your non intercooler setup is very tempting. My friend with the 4in exhaust 35r car has very similar intake setup as well. Also Why not be 2.0 and take it to the same rpm with more flow? I dont get that part with being 1.6.

 

[turbo addict]

Your non intercooler setup is very tempting. My friend with the 4in exhaust 35r car has very similar intake setup as well. Also Why not be 2.0 and take it to the same rpm with more flow? I dont get that part with being 1.6.

I have a liquid air, just next to no piping. As far as keeping the 2.0, I have a 1992 6/4 awd auto without a motor and a 1.6liter just taking up space in my garage, the 2.0 is a jdm motor and would be well suited to the winter car awd auto.

Gas mileage has gone way down with the 2.0. I was getting 23 combined with the 4g61 and 17-18 combined with the 2.0. With more tuning and a different tranny and the 11to1 1.6 I want 30mpg.

I cant take the 2.0 as far as the 1.6 as my turbo is out of steam, and with all of the big 2.0 torque the only gear that I get traction in is 5th. I am currently working on swaping to a taller tranny with a quaife so this should help. However the 2.0 in the mirage is not as fun as the 1.6 was.

I am staying with my e316g as it has been a great turbo and not given me any problems. I also am at the limit of my fuel with the 255hp walbro and rc1000cc injectors. I should probably get a new intercooler as mine is on the small side but it has worked so far, I plan on doing testing to see if i am getting a pressure drop worthy of making me change.

Basically I loved the way that the car was with the 1.6 and just want to build it so that I don't break anymore rod bolts. And if I'm doing rods I should do better pistons and If I'm doing aftermarket pistons I may as well do high compression to get closer to my magic 30mpg. It just so happens that the higher compression will make me more power and help to push the already maxed out parts that I have further so... yay

Lastly I have a 2g awd with enough parts waiting in my house to choke a horse, this is my "real car" and really want to get going on that, I have a friend with a MKIV that is going single soon and have to keep ahead of him, the mirage is just not going to do it. (not safe at off-highway speeds over 175-180mph)

I love my mirage, but it was supposed to be my daily with boltons and has gotten WAYYYYY out of hand. The reason I bought the 16g was so I could not spend money on it and keep it quick and as reliable as a dsm/csm can be. Now I am doing a built motor and a quaife and have traction bars etc,etc,etc. I really am ready to finish this car and just drive it. I am also hoping that when I get the 2g talon going that I won't need to beat the crap out of the mirage just enjoy the drive and when I really want to go fast or race someone then pullout the 2g.

 

[Black_Bullet]

The 16g itself with those high boost aggressive torque spikes is not helping your traction issues. IMO, youd be better off with the 2.0 and a slightly bigger turbo ( say a hx35.) Your spool times will probably be about the same as the 16g on the 1.6 liter, maybe even quicker.
Since its fwd, if your making power the traction will suffer regardless unless you go all out to make it hook.

Personally Id go all out on that 1g auto you mentioned, its just makes too much sense after seeing cars like Lucas English's 1g Talon consistently going 10.6 with the 16g. That would be my all out car and my daily at the same time . Or even better dropping that setup in that light little mirage of yours and making it awd !!! But im reaching a little there...

 

[turbo addict]

The 16g itself with those high boost aggressive torque spikes is not helping your traction issues. IMO, youd be better off with the 2.0 and a slightly bigger turbo ( say a hx35.) Your spool times will probably be about the same as the 16g on the 1.6 liter, maybe even quicker.
Since its fwd, if your making power the traction will suffer regardless unless you go all out to make it hook.

Personally Id go all out on that 1g auto you mentioned, its just makes too much sense after seeing cars like Lucas English's 1g Talon consistently going 10.6 with the 16g. That would be my all out car and my daily at the same time . Or even better dropping that setup in that light little mirage of yours and making it awd !!! But im reaching a little there...

awd mirage has been across my mind long ago but after taking mine at higher speeds I decided against it. The 2gb talon in a much more aerodynamic car with a far better suspension. And they plain look nicer, mirage you need to grow to love 2gb talon is at first sight.

And as far as the auto. It will get some things but I have been acquiring parts since 1997 when I bought my first talon to put on the 2g. All I have left for stage one is the (tial wastegates MVR 44) fuel line and fittings and intercooler piping. then it should run. So i am getting excited about that.