Help with my timing.

[matt98eclipse]

Hey guys ive been fighting with my timing on my 2g for a while now. I have tried SO many times to get all the marks to line up perfect and they just wont line up. Now im no nobbie when it comes to this i have timed alot of these motors but this one for some reason is kickin my ass.

I lined up the intake and exhaust cam marks to were there lined up perfect with the surface of the head and i put a ruller next to the marks to verify. I counted 39 teeth from end mark to end mark on the cams. So im pretty sure the upper part of the timing is correct.

NOW when i take the belt from the intake cam down past the idler pully down to the oil pump sprocket the teeth on the belt cause the marks on the oil pump gear not to line up correctly, witch throws off the marks on the crank mark to be a little off as well. So basically i can get the upper timing all right but then the teeth on the belt wont line up corretly with the bottem timing marks.

What do you guys think? Heres a couple pics of the closest i can get them.

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You can see the timing marks are all lined up here!

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Oil pump gear is off by half a tooth.

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Crank looks off by half a tooth or so too.

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[snowborder714]

It looks like the oil pump is close enough (the mark has a bit of 'play' in it), but I'd try to get the crank better as that looks a bit off. And the cam gears look good to me, however the pictures aren't the greatest.

 

[matt98eclipse]

Thanks brian. If i move the crank gear up one tooth then its up way to high i tryed that already. This was the closest i was able to get the marks to line up. Sorry about the pics shity cell phone cam. Also this motor doesnt have balance shafts.

 

[snowborder714]

If it doesn't have BS, then you technically don't need to worry about the oil pump mark.

With the marks that close, it's really hard for me to give definite advise. I would suggest using the Jay Racing cam gear tool to anyone as it makes lining the gears up easy and solid once the tool is in. But with how close you're getting, it's probably not worth it right now to get it. I'm on the verge of saying "It looks fine" but I personally would want to play with it a bit more to see why the crank is off.

 

[matt98eclipse]

It is really close. Im just about to say the hell with it and fire it up and see what happens. Ive must of tryed getting this timing right atleast 8 times or more!! Im on the egde of say "it looks fine" aswell.

Anyone else have any imputs on this??

Just a little update i went ahead and decided to fire it up. The timing seems be be dead on like this cause theres no misses or anything a nice steady idle. BUT now i think i might have messed something else up. For some reason after i started the car up i noticed oil was leaking out one of the tensioner holes were the bolt threads into now. What did i mess up now? heres a pic of the tensioner bolt thats leakin a little oil.

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[XiKeiyaZI]

When I did my first timing job on my N/T... one of the bolt holes leaked a little oil on me as well. I never took time to figure out what it was, as neglectful as that sounds. I just tightened down a little more and no more leak. Car ran like a champ till I drove it 200 miles away and sold it.

 

[matt98eclipse]

I tried to tighten it down pretty much as tight as it will go without breaking it and still leaks a little.

 

[romeen]

Use a bit of thread sealant on the bolt threads. This is what I used, it works great:

http://www.permatex.com/products/Au..._Permatex_High_Temperature_Thread_Sealant.htm

Also make sure that you are using the correct bolts for the auto tensioner and not a bolt from your "miscellaneous nuts and bolts bucket." The correct bolts have a flared shoulder just under the head of the bolt (at least on my 6 bolt motor they do).

FWIW, I agree that your timing marks look fine.

 

[matt98eclipse]

Use a bit of thread sealant on the bolt threads. This is what I used, it works great:

http://www.permatex.com/products/Au..._Permatex_High_Temperature_Thread_Sealant.htm

Also make sure that you are using the correct bolts for the auto tensioner and not a bolt from your "miscellaneous nuts and bolts bucket." The correct bolts have a flared shoulder just under the head of the bolt (at least on my 6 bolt motor they do).

FWIW, I agree that your timing marks look fine.

Thanks romeen,

The bolts i used for the tensioner are the correct ones they have the flare shoulder under the head of the bolt. I just used a little teflon tape around the threads and that was able to seal it up just fine.

So you think the timing looks ok as well? With the marks lined up as pictured above the ran seems to run pretty good i have about 15 miles on it so far like this. The car definitely feels a little sluggish like it doesnt have as much power when it boost as it use too for some reason now

 

[romeen]

Thanks romeen,

The bolts i used for the tensioner are the correct ones they have the flare shoulder under the head of the bolt. I just used a little teflon tape around the threads and that was able to seal it up just fine.

So you think the timing looks ok as well? With the marks lined up as pictured above the ran seems to run pretty good i have about 15 miles on it so far like this. The car definitely feels a little sluggish like it doesnt have as much power when it boost as it use too for some reason now

Yes, I think the timing looks good. But if you want peace of mind you can stick a long wooden dowel or something similar down through the spark plug hole in cylinder #1 so that the tip is resting on top of the piston. As you rotate the crank a few degrees near the timing mark you can watch the end that is sticking out to see when it is at TDC and confirm that the crank timing marks line up. If you don't want to remove the lower timing cover again you can use the timing mark on the crank pulley. It should line up with the "T" on the timing cover when #1 is at TDC. I honestly don't think it's necessary though.

Your power loss sounds more like a boost leak, especially if you removed any part of the intake when you did the work on your car. Either way I would start with a boost leak test and go from there.

 

[ziggo0]

Crank looks a tooth off.

 

[matt98eclipse]

Ok guys im back. Im really startin to think my timing is off a little. The car starts and idles great but for some reason it doesnt have the power or isnt boosting nothing like it used to before the head rebuild..

I was lookin threw my cell phone and noticed i took some pics of how the timing marks were all lined up before the teardown (rebuild). Take a look at how the timings marks were before.

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[romeen]

Hard to say for sure but in the first pic it kind of looks like the marks are not truly horizontal. Like this / \ but obviously not that extreme. Keep in mind that when you extend the line between the cam gear marks it should go through the center of the cam gear bolts. Ignore the outer marks on the cam gears as they will be slightly off.

I still think that you should perform a boost leak test and go from there. Make a boost leak tester. Trust me, it will end up being one of the best "mods" you can do to keep your car running strong.

 

[matt98eclipse]

Thanks romeen, I have a boost leak tester. I performed at test tonight thinking that i would find a big boost leak. Well i was wrong there was no major boost leaks at all. I only found one little one witch was the biss oring (witch need a part number to replace) and Then i was leaking quite a bit of air out my valve cover breather! I know my pcv valve is good. Its a new oem one.

The air leakin out my valve cover breather is whats makin me think my timing is slightly off.

 

[romeen]

See if you can get a better pic of how the crank mark is lining up.

It sounds like you've got quite a bit of air leaking into the crankcase. Even brand new oem PCV valves can leak. It's actually more common than you might think. You can check it by unscrewing the PCV from the valve cover but leave it connected to the vacuum line that runs to the IM. Pressurize the intake and check for air coming out of the snorkel end of the PCV. A compression test might be a good idea.

 

[matt98eclipse]

I checked to see if the pcv valve is leaking like how you said and it wasnt leakin at all So i know thats good. What are all the things that would cause crankcase pressure with doing a BLT.

Ill do a compression test tonight and report back with you guys on the resaults.

Oh and ill take some pics of the crank timing marks when cylinder 1 is at top dead center.

 

[dsmspickdad]

After looking at your pics re-install your timing belt, looks like your timing is off.

 

[romeen]

I checked to see if the pcv valve is leaking like how you said and it wasnt leakin at all So i know thats good. What are all the things that would cause crankcase pressure with doing a BLT.

Ill do a compression test tonight and report back with you guys on the resaults.

Oh and ill take some pics of the crank timing marks when cylinder 1 is at top dead center.

Air gets past the piston rings. Especially when the motor is cold. Some leakage past the rings is expected. The compression test will help to determine if that is a problem or not.

If you have the BLT tester attached at the turbo compressor inlet then air will leak past the turbo seals. Not unusual when there is no oil pressure to help them seal. If you have good compression, you're not burning oil and there is not shaft play of the turbo then those are probably not issues

 

[matt98eclipse]

Ok well i did a compression test and heres what i came up with.

piston 1=185 piston 2=170 piston 3=155 piston 4=170

The car doesnt smoke at all and doesnt burn any oil too.

Blt was done at the turbo inlet and motor wasnt completly hot and to were i drove it gave it some boost. When i did a BLT all i did was let the motor idle to were it got to operating temp.