Help Tuning with SAFC its whacked out.

[Mike Marnik]

Ok well i though i had gotten my car tuned finally about 3 weeks or so ago. Well tonight after finding my logger that had been mia for a few weeks my fuel trims were at 139. So i finally got around to getting an o2 bung welded in to use a wideband. Well i get the wideband hooked up and im running rich as all hell. Its like 9:1 afr and i have been getting shitty gas milage. Well tonight i started trying to just get the low trims set and for the 1000 rpm point i have to have it at +7 or so to get the fuel trim at 100% and at the 2000 rpm point its at +1 before i was around -12 for 2000 and -5 for 1000. I am getting really fed up with this safc. I am about to just buy an eprom and get a kediver chip but finacially that will be hard on me, but its looking like a great idea. Oh also i am getting around 28 counts of knock?? when doing a 3rd gear pull but its 9:1 afr. Please help me out before i go nuts.

 

[weith1111]

Having AFC settings for low idle that are around yours are fairly normal. Problem is your injectors have more dead time, so even though they are larger, they are slower, thus you aren't getting fuel fast enough. As long as your trims come out to around 100% you should be fine. I'm around +10 at 1000 and +2 for 2-3k.

What are your high throttle settings? If you are running as rich as 9:1 you are most likely getting rich knock, drowing your cylinders in gas and ruining your oil to boot. Bottom line knock doesn't have to be just from running to rich. Overly rich conditions can cause problems too.

Have you done some basic maintenance/checking lately? Leak test, base timing set right, plugs ok and gapped right, etc?

Can you post a WOT log that you have?

 

[Mike Marnik]

the log is at my friends i will have him get that up. I was worried about the low fuel trims so i didnt get back to messing with the highs. I reset the base timing about a week ago also checked the plug and their fairly new and gapped right fairly new plug wires knock sensor is about 5 months old, fuel filter is about 4 months old, ecu was recently recapped. All maintence is well up to date. Approximately what are your high settings so i can get a base setting to work off of. thanks for the help

 

[weith1111]

Read this it's super helpful:
http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58403

Also, make sure your base FP is set to 37.5 with the line off.

A safe place to start is -10. This should leave you pretty rich. You are "supposed" to end up somewhere around -18, but I'm only like -15 at 1 rpm setting, and -10 or -12 on the others, and I've seen folks -10 to -22, it's very car/setup specific.

 

[Mike Marnik]

Wow! well while taking a look at the tuning guide again (its what i used before) i had an epiffany. I had my higg ne points set before but since i didnt have my lows set they kept screwing up the high fuel trim. I saw the airflow and how it relates to each trim and i do alot of highway driving at about 70-80 mph which put me in the high fuel trim settings screwing them up. I will get my lows set perfectly today hopefully and then start to reset the high nepoints as i messed them up without writing them down :doh:. I got them close right now but not at 100 yet its like 106 low 103 mid. Ill see if i can get the wideband also from my friend again i have all the worse and sensor just not the interface. woo hoo im optimistic.

 

[weith1111]

 

[Mike Marnik]

well im getting somewhere finally with the low settings woo hoo. Right now 1k is at +9 rest are at 0. when i idle the low trim is at about 96% but when the fans kick on jumps up to 107 then back down after they shut off. i dont know if i should take another 1percent out and bring down to 8 or leave it. Now what i have noticed is when i cruise or even have it anywhere about 100 rpm its in the high fuel trim range 175hz+ am i interperting this right?? if so my high trim is at 85% and i think i need to take alot more out on the other lows. Just checkin to see if im still on the right path. Also i put the highs back to approx what they were when i got it tuned before the lows messed it up.

 

[weith1111]

well im getting somewhere finally with the low settings woo hoo. Right now 1k is at +9 rest are at 0. when i idle the low trim is at about 96% but when the fans kick on jumps up to 107 then back down after they shut off. i dont know if i should take another 1percent out and bring down to 8 or leave it. Now what i have noticed is when i cruise or even have it anywhere about 100 rpm its in the high fuel trim range 175hz+ am i interperting this right?? if so my high trim is at 85% and i think i need to take alot more out on the other lows. Just checkin to see if im still on the right path. Also i put the highs back to approx what they were when i got it tuned before the lows messed it up.

-The ECU will correct from something like 85-135%. Ideally you want to be at 100%, but the trims will move a little, dependant on a host of things that will change. That's why there is a range of control. Leave it at +9 you will be fine.

-I don't understand your comment about "100rpm its in the high fuel trim range" but your high trim is pegged rich, you need to lean it out a bunch at high trim RPMs, most likely everything from 3k RPM up.

 

[steve]

The trims are Air Flow HZ based. So while the car is still in closed loop and over 182Hz the high fuel trim is the active one.

On a 1G with a 1G MAF corrections the trims ranges are:
Fuel trim switches from low trim to mid trim at 106Hz
Fuel trim switches from mid trim to low trim at 94Hz
Fuel trim switches from mid trim to high trim at 182Hz
Fuel trim switches from high trim to mid trim at 170Hz

So, when your driving around at a RPM that puts you in one of those ranges you would adjust the SAFC low throttle setting to get that trim closer to 100.

Assuming no serious AFPR, MAF, or vacuum/boost leaks once you correct for deadtime you should wind up with a pretty consistant correction for just the injector size difference. Those would get extended across the RPMs that are open loop in the low throttle settings.
Then all the lows get copied to the high before you start leaning the car out in the high throttle settings from the factory open loop maps.

On one of the new SAFC-II I set a 800 RPM NE point and then a 1k (or 1.2k) on to help adjust for deadtime at idle vs the car actually under load.

Steve

 

[Mike Marnik]

ok ill be doing some more tuning tomorrow. Steve explaind what i was getting at in a more tecnical way. the vfaq link above has the points it switches much different from what you have but im assumong yours is right being your the ecu guru.

 

[kelvinb]

-note-

this is from yesterday after installing my wideband when we were getting 9:1 af (i looked down and happened to notice) this is a 2nd/3rd gear pull.

timing 02 tps rpm knock
34° 0.16V 94.5% 3156 0
27° 0.84V 97.3% 3125 0
27° 0.84V 97.3% 3188 0
26° 0.84V 97.3% 3281 0
24° 0.86V 97.3% 3344 0
23° 0.88V 97.3% 3375 5
22° 0.88V 97.3% 3406 4
22° 0.88V 97.3% 3469 4
23° 0.86V 97.3% 3531 4
23° 0.86V 97.3% 3594 3
24° 0.86V 97.3% 3688 3
24° 0.86V 97.3% 3750 3
24° 0.86V 97.3% 3781 2
24° 0.86V 97.3% 3844 3
23° 0.86V 97.3% 3906 10
20° 0.86V 97.3% 4000 9
21° 0.86V 97.3% 4094 9
22° 0.86V 97.3% 4125 9
21° 0.86V 97.3% 4156 16
18° 0.86V 97.3% 4313 15
18° 0.86V 97.3% 4375 15
18° 0.86V 97.3% 4344 15
17° 0.86V 97.3% 4563 14
18° 0.86V 97.3% 4594 14
17° 0.86V 97.3% 4688 18
15° 0.86V 97.3% 4750 18
12° 0.86V 97.3% 4781 17
13° 0.86V 97.6% 4750 17
13° 0.86V 97.3% 4875 17
13° 0.86V 97.3% 4969 17
13° 0.86V 97.3% 4938 16
14° 0.84V 97.3% 5156 16
14° 0.84V 97.3% 5219 25
11° 0.84V 97.3% 5313 25
12° 0.84V 97.3% 5281 38
8° 0.84V 97.3% 5406 38
9° 0.84V 97.3% 5406 38
10° 0.82V 97.6% 5594 43
10° 0.82V 97.3% 5719 43
9° 0.82V 97.3% 5875 43
13° 0.82V 97.3% 5688 43
11° 0.82V 97.3% 5938 43
11° 0.82V 97.3% 6000 43
13° 0.82V 97.3% 5906 43
14° 0.82V 97.3% 6094 43
14° 0.82V 97.3% 6094 43
13° 0.82V 97.6% 6188 43
13° 0.82V 97.6% 6250 43
15° 0.82V 97.3% 6281 43
11° 0.82V 97.3% 6344 43
15° 0.80V 97.6% 6531 43
13° 0.82V 97.3% 6438 43
12° 0.80V 97.3% 6406 43
13° 0.80V 97.3% 6531 43
12° 0.82V 97.3% 6563 43
13° 0.80V 97.3% 6750 43

 

[Flybiyou]

Man you look like you running lean. Your o2's are readind 86-82-83-87-88 most people tune for 90's. Are you sure your wideband o2 sensor is good?

 

[dets]

Wide band with a voltage output of .87???? Not possible unless the WB was set to give out an voltage reading to mimic a stock level.


Which WB are you using?


I'm using the innovate unit and have nothing but good things to say about it.





EDIT: The WB is installed on my Audi Coupe with SEM. I had to change the output on my WB to mimic a stock level so that my SEM would understand it. I was told that it would be the same on any stock or piggy back ecu.

 

[weith1111]

Um that is some BAAAAAAAAD knock. You probably don't want to do that again.

Is your base timing set correctly? Your timing doesn't look right at all. With that much knock your timing should be nill.

You have no fuel upgrades right? And are only running 15psi? I'd rewire your pump at minimum.

 

[sbiggi]

-note-

this is from yesterday after installing my wideband when we were getting 9:1 af (i looked down and happened to notice) this is a 2nd/3rd gear pull.

timing 02 tps rpm knock
34° 0.16V 94.5% 3156 0
27° 0.84V 97.3% 3125 0
27° 0.84V 97.3% 3188 0
26° 0.84V 97.3% 3281 0
24° 0.86V 97.3% 3344 0
23° 0.88V 97.3% 3375 5
22° 0.88V 97.3% 3406 4
22° 0.88V 97.3% 3469 4
23° 0.86V 97.3% 3531 4
23° 0.86V 97.3% 3594 3
24° 0.86V 97.3% 3688 3
24° 0.86V 97.3% 3750 3
24° 0.86V 97.3% 3781 2
24° 0.86V 97.3% 3844 3
23° 0.86V 97.3% 3906 10
20° 0.86V 97.3% 4000 9
21° 0.86V 97.3% 4094 9
22° 0.86V 97.3% 4125 9
21° 0.86V 97.3% 4156 16
18° 0.86V 97.3% 4313 15
18° 0.86V 97.3% 4375 15
18° 0.86V 97.3% 4344 15
17° 0.86V 97.3% 4563 14
18° 0.86V 97.3% 4594 14
17° 0.86V 97.3% 4688 18
15° 0.86V 97.3% 4750 18
12° 0.86V 97.3% 4781 17
13° 0.86V 97.6% 4750 17
13° 0.86V 97.3% 4875 17
13° 0.86V 97.3% 4969 17
13° 0.86V 97.3% 4938 16
14° 0.84V 97.3% 5156 16
14° 0.84V 97.3% 5219 25
11° 0.84V 97.3% 5313 25
12° 0.84V 97.3% 5281 38
8° 0.84V 97.3% 5406 38
9° 0.84V 97.3% 5406 38
10° 0.82V 97.6% 5594 43

What size injectors are you running? It looks like you are taking out alot of the airflow signal, as your timing is way high. Normally your timing would dip into the low teens and then climb back up to 22 or so for a 1g.

If you are a 1g then you can reduce your base timing with the CAS to combat the increased timing. Which is why piggyback controllers suck.

If you are still on stock injectors, then you have a boost leak for sure. Which is why it is running rich.

 

[kelvinb]

well i clicked his link to his car, these are his mods

safc, 3in apexi turbo back exhaust, prothane motor mounts, turboXS mbc, K&N filter, act 2600, magnecor wires, ngk coppers 1 range colder, balance shaft elimination, emissions removal, walbro 255, aeromotive fpr, fic 550cc injectors.

that log is with MMCD, and like i said (i looked down and noticed) the wideband, which is an innovative, was on my lap and i was just watching it. i dont have the power cord for it so i cant give you the log, but it was in the 9.0:1-9.9:1 range the entire time during the 3rd gear pull. yes i did recaliberate it while the sensor was out of the exhaust, then we put it in.

 

[sbiggi]

well i clicked his link to his car, these are his mods

safc, 3in apexi turbo back exhaust, prothane motor mounts, turboXS mbc, K&N filter, act 2600, magnecor wires, ngk coppers 1 range colder, balance shaft elimination, emissions removal, walbro 255, aeromotive fpr, fic 550cc injectors.

that log is with MMCD, and like i said (i looked down and noticed) the wideband, which is an innovative, was on my lap and i was just watching it. i dont have the power cord for it so i cant give you the log, but it was in the 9.0:1-9.9:1 range the entire time during the 3rd gear pull. yes i did recaliberate it while the sensor was out of the exhaust, then we put it in.

Hmm.. I must be blind, I swear injectors werent listed the first time I looked at.


Unless you are still hitting the top load colum, the ecu is going to run more timing because you are reducing the air flow signal trying to compensate for the larger injectors.

Here is the stock timing on a 1g with no knock...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

The only way to reduce timing with out reprograming the ecu would be to reduce the base timing or increase airflow.
You can also reduce the base fuel pressure, that way you can add more air back in with the safc.

-Seth

 

[Mike Marnik]

like i was saying everything seemed to be whacked out that night. The wideband was also not being logged with the logger it was separate and we could not get it posted. Last time i was tuning my o2s never got to .9 but i had no knock i think it was .87-.88. THe o2 was new back in september. Like people have said all car are different. I will get crazy knock some time even when its running very rich and also the knock sensor was new back in september also. Im gonna be finishing up the low ne point tuning today and hopefully get to work on the high. If i can find a serial to usb cable today i will beable to post my logs myself. Also my base timing is at 5* btdc and at 10 when idle which its supposed to be. My fuel pressure is set at 37.5-38 psi

 

[kelvinb]

keep in mind mike, that we are in nebraska. one day its 67 next day its 10 and snowing. this will have something to do with it for sure. we need to wait till we start getting nicer weather because you will have a tune for cold weather and then when we start legally racing and its 80 out we could have problems.

 

[Mike Marnik]

ya well i um need to tuned for now and it will only be a few adjustments when its nice out plus its cold at night out at the dragstrip

 

[Mike Marnik]

hey guys. I finally got the lows set last week and the highs set good untill summer becuase these crazy nebraska temperaturs 65 one day 25 the next is messing with my tuning. Well this weekend while changing out the tranny mount i had to take the battery out which reset the ecu and now my fuel trims are off again????? before the 1k low ne point was +9 now i have it down to +3 to get it around 100% low trim. Now my high trim is at 90 it was at 98-99% before and i have all my other lows set at -3 i had 2k low ne at -2 but brought it back to -3 tonight before i shut the car off hopefully that will bring the high back up. Any opinions on this would be appreciated. shouldi just drive it around for a while and see where it goes or should i start messing with the trims again. Oh i also discoverd that my intake wasnt tightend onto the turbo i dunno how i messed that up brain must have not been working so maybe that was the problem also.

 

[weith1111]

Just monitor things over the next couple days (I don't know how much driving you do). It takes awhile for the ECU to relearn everything. That leak at the turbo will have an effect on your settings for sure.