Help Please!! Startup/Idling Problems

[Shane2GSX]

I've been having problems starting/idling my car since installing BC 272/272 Cams. Immediately after doing the cams, it would start and run, but once it got cold for the first time, it didn't want to start. I could get it to roll over like it wanted to start, but it just wouldn't. It also smelled very right. (I am on stock fuel, btw)

I finaly got link in, turned the fuel down (since it seemed rich), changed the plugs (which smelled like fuel), and managed to get it to start and run. Last night, I adjusted my TPS to .63 volts via DSMLink. Now, once again, it does not want to start or run. Plus, it pops and backfires. The only thing that has remained consistent, is the fact that once warmed up, it will run
but it wants to idle surge.

Here are the things I've done, that have not corrected the problem:
Checked Timing 4 times
Changed MDP (MAP) Sensor (It was broken)
Compression Check (150 across the board)
Changed plugs
Adjusted TPS to .63 Volts via DSMLink
Flipped CAS 180*
Turned fuel down
Tried playing with 50 Hz slider, both ways +-10

What else can I do??? Can anyone give me any indication as to what's wrong in my logs??

 

[ypnas777]

If it was running fine after the cam install when it was warm out then it's probably not the cams giving you problems. What's your idle set at? My car also doesn't like to start during cold morning but runs fine once it starts...I think that's normal. My buddy who lives in the same town as I do has the same thing happen to him during cold starts. We both are running stock cams but have DSMLink though. What injectors are you running? Attach a log of just idling and capture RawThrotPos, TPSvolts, ThrotPos, ISCPosition, IdleSW, airflowperrev, and LTFT low.

 

[jrpmp69]

It looks like you turned the fuel down too low or your front O2 is bad.

 

[ypnas777]

You shouldn't have to touch the fuel settings if your on the stock turbo and fuel system. Just leave the global and dead time at 0. I don't think your problem has to do with the cams. if your timing is right then cams wouldn't cause these things to happen. Have you checked for boost/vacuum leaks?

 

[Shane2GSX]

If it was running fine after the cam install when it was warm out then it's probably not the cams giving you problems. What's your idle set at? My car also doesn't like to start during cold morning but runs fine once it starts...I think that's normal. My buddy who lives in the same town as I do has the same thing happen to him during cold starts. We both are running stock cams but have DSMLink though. What injectors are you running? Attach a log of just idling and capture RawThrotPos, TPSvolts, ThrotPos, ISCPosition, IdleSW, airflowperrev, and LTFT low.

I meant it runs by itself with out throttle, after the engine warms up. I have to give it throttle to get it to start and have to hold it for a while until it's warm. Before the CAMS, I didn't have to do this.

It also idle surges.. I have the idle set in DSMLink to 1100 RPM. But it'll fluctuate from 1100 to 1800 after it's been warmed up and driven. Also, my vacuum is around 5-10 hg at 1100 rpms.

Thing is, when I try to start it, the rpms don't even get to 1100 rpms w/o me giving it throttle.

I'm on stock fuel.

I posted a log with those values (except for LTFT Low). I can post another with LTFT low if needed..

 

[Shane2GSX]

So a vacuum leak could cause problems this severe??

 

[jrpmp69]

Make sure that all your vacuum hoses and connectors are plugged in and are where they're suppose to be, if you forget to connect one vacuum hose it could cause your engine to run poorly.

Also, take a straight edge and check the timing mark alignment on your cam gears at TDC.

 

[ypnas777]

Your vacuum is wayyy too low for 1100. You should be able to run BC 272's at around 950 and have enough vacuum to run fine. I also vote for vacuum leak.

 

[B-lackGSX99]

all the above suggestions are important to explore, but I would also like to add (according to my own experience with 272 cams) that when I had to exact same problem, I installed a block heater and haven't had to worry about it since. Prior to the block heater, my car would turn over and turn over, but no start...now it fires up really well, although I do have to wait a bit for my clutch to stop being sticky. Temperatures here are currently at about negative 30 degrees celsius. I suggest throwing in a block heater, properly installed by a dealership (not one of those cheap dip stick heaters). Good luck bud.

Oh, and make sure your spark plugs and battery terminals are clean.

 

[Shane2GSX]

I've checked timing about 4 times, with a straight edge. It's dead on..

Okay, well I guess I should have tested for a vacuum leak before. I've got a boost leak tester sitting in the garage so I'll do that tonight or tomorrow.. Thanks guys..

 

[Shane2GSX]

When I test for a vacuum leak, would I not just use the same procedure as I would for a boost leak. I figure start at the throttle body and move back..

Any tips?

 

[jrpmp69]

Charge your whole system through your turbo inlet with a compressor.
http://www.mirage-performance.com/EclipseGSX/BoostLeaks/index.html

 

[Shane2GSX]

Okay, thanks jrpmp69..

Oh, one last thing, I remember reading somewhere that you have to have the engine at TDC for this.. I did a quick search and looked in the VFAQ and didn't see anything about it..

Is this true?? I don't see why it would make any difference...

 

[scottsee]

You don't need too. I'll take a look at the DSMlink logs after I get off work.. Sounds like your forgot to hook up somthing or have a huge leak.

 

[scottsee]

Your Coolant temps are 80deg. They need to be above 190 before LTFT are updated from STFT values.. Your g/rev airflow values are extreamly high, cycling in the .40-.50-.60's.., they should be around .27g/rev at sea level and 70deg. You have unmonitored air coming in after the MAF. Your ISCPosition starts off at 111, dips down into the 80's and back up. It should be stable around 30. None of that matters though, because we need a warm idle log. Lots of this information about can be found on DSMlink Wiki, as well as on my website. Idle..

But ultimitly your best source of information will be found on the Dsmlink forums.... rm34459, need I say more?!

 

[c4uldr0n]

I was gonna say +1 for vacuum leak... #16 proves it

 

[Shane2GSX]

Your Coolant temps are 80deg. They need to be above 190 before LTFT are updated from STFT values.. Your g/rev airflow values are extreamly high, cycling in the .40-.50-.60's.., they should be around .27g/rev at sea level and 70deg. You have unmonitored air coming in after the MAF. Your ISCPosition starts off at 111, dips down into the 80's and back up. It should be stable around 30. None of that matters though, because we need a warm idle log. Lots of this information about can be found on DSMlink Wiki, as well as on my website. Idle, LTFT..

But ultimitly your best source of information will be found on the Dsmlink forums.... rm34459, need I say more?!

You guys are awesome, I love this site..

I think what I'll do is, tomorrow after work I'll do a boost leak test, check over every thing, and find any leaks I can. Then even if I have trouble starting, I'll get on the throttle to to keep it alive so I can get a warm idle log up. I'll also check out those links you provided.

And yes, Rick in Link forums is quite awesome. He has helped me some, but hasn't been to active in my thread.. I'm sure he has a life outside of DSMLink..

Thank you guys, you don't know how much it's appreciated.. I'll report back

 

[jrpmp69]

Any updates?

 

[tsunari]

without looking at the logs, I would've suggested maybe one or both of the cams slipped timing if they were installed on adjustable gears . . .

 

[Shane2GSX]

Nope, they were not installed on adjustable gears..

Update:
Still having problems, so I've decided to install the AFPR, PLX WB02, and FIC 850cc injectors to ensure I don't have a fuel problem. This also allows me to see base fuel pressure and get an accurate AFR. These will be done tonight.

I also did a boost leak test, found a leak at the BOV, fixed it. But it didn't help. My plugs got fouled out again from running rich. So I got some new ones, and will try those next time we try to start it.

Also, after fixing the leak at the BOV, I hooked up to the TB and built about 25 psi, it then slowly let out pressure for about 30 seconds or so. I've been told this is normal..

Things I've done that haven't worked:
Checked Timing 4 times
New BISSS and ORing
Changed MDP (MAP) Sensor (It was broken)
Compression Check (150 across the board)
Changed plugs
Adjusted TPS to .63 Volts via DSMLink
Flipped CAS 180*
Tried playing with 50 and 150 Hz sliders, both ways +-25
Unplugged MAF and tried to start (acted the same)
Try Swapping Plug Wires (they should be right though)
Boost Leak Test
Check Injector Harnesses

Note: In dsmlink, while the car is off, my MAFRaw is reading 15.3-15.7 Hz. I've looked and cant find if this is normal or not. Also, I unplugged the MAF and still got the same reading..

Edit: My MAFRaw is not being updated b/c the car is not fully starting. So nevermind that, it's not an issue.

 

[jrpmp69]

Sounds like your MAF is bad.

 

[Shane2GSX]

What makes you say that?

 

[Shane2GSX]

Update:
Installed AFPR, 850's, plugs, and set the base fp to 43.5. Turned the key, and the car started!! But, something still wasn't right. It was really rough and seemed really rich. So, we replaced the front O2 sensor, no effect. I got a different CAS from a friend, put it on, and it ran MUCH better. I'm thinking back when we put the original CAS on before, we overtighted the middle bolt (that goes into the cam) so much that we couldn't get the outside holes to line up. We then backed the middle one back out and got it on right. But that may have damaged it. Either way, the new one seems to have fixed the starting/running like shit issue.

However: I still have some idle surge problems. I cannot get my BISS adjusted to get a ISCPosition reading of 30 and LearnIdle of 140. On many occaissions, the ISC goes to 0, sometimes up to 70, and everywhere in between. The car will idle, and won't die, but it surges on occaission. I also have a DTC 1400 (MDP Sensor Malfunction). My vacuum sits around 10 at 1100 rpms.

So I'm thinking that maybe b/c of the surging and my DTC, that it may be an EGR problem. If not that, then maybe the ISC is bad..

Any thoughts?

 

[jrpmp69]

If you unplug your MAF and the car doesnt do anything then theres something wrong with it, I unplugged mine one day to test it out and the engine just shoock like crazy and wanted to shut off.

 

[Shane2GSX]

It will start fine once warmed up. I just have to figure out why it's idle surging and giving me high idle on occaission. I think that will help with the not starting when cold issue.