Go with 255 or 190 walbro?

[andymoraitis]

I agree with you about DSMLink, but some people with fairly mild setups like mine have managed to squeeze some more performance with it. Whether it's worth it really depends on if someone plans on going much further and really wants that ability to fine tune, so I see exactly where you're coming from.

I personally like my setup and I don't have an AFC, MAFT, or DSMLink. If I ever want to upgrade to an EVO III, all I'll need are new injectors and a new chip from Jeff to dial in the deadtime. Well, that and some ARP head studs so I can really yank on it. Call me simple, but I like things that work well together without me having to constantly tweak.

Andy

 

[WatchItExplode]

I'm planning on getting DSMlink very soon to tune my car. I don't plan on upgrading beyond the Evo III I have now, but I don't really think DSMlink is overkill. I just prefer the features of that set up and I feel it is worth it even though I have modest power goals.

 

[90REkTSi]

Do any of you guys think that if the guy is going for mild mods, that DsmLink is overkill, just like him getting a 255? As far as I'm concerned, basic modding only needs basic tuning. Therefore an AFC and datalogger are more then capable of tuning his 550s or 650s and what not.

I'm not saying anything is wrong with DSMlink because I think it's a great thing to have and many guys have found it much easier to use then using everything else the Link already has. I just think that you guys are bringing up things that he is not looking at doing..

Yeah i'm trying to keep things really really simple! I just wanna up the boost a little and just prevent the whole thing from blowing up! I know this is a NOOB question but since its on the topic...how do i know if i have a EPROM ECU or is it something i need to get? I haven't really got into the ECU upgrades and stuff, i've heard that STEVE repairs or recalibrates them? Also does the keydiver chip change the fuel and timing maps?

The MAFT sounds a little more "user friendly" than the SAFC, but i'm assuming the SAFC can be fine tuned better than the MAFT? Agent11 what do you mean by "additional benefits" on the MAFT? For now i beleive imma stick with a rewired 190 pump and 550 injectors for now. Dont think imma really need the AFPR just yet...I also plan to install my 2g maf once i get the fuel system upgraded.

Any links to my above questions would be great! Thanks again guys!

 

[andymoraitis]

Here's what I recommend for a very simple and effective setup. Ignore the fact that it looks a lot like mine!

Big 16G variant (small or large will do fine)
190 Walbro
FIC 550cc injectors
EPROM ECU with Keydiver Stage III

With a fuel system of this type and the medium range power of the 16G, you should easily have enough grunt to satisfy you. If you were to upgrade your intercooler, you could make even more power, but it's not absolutely necessary. With this you'll also need to verify that your compression is strong.

Regarding whether you have an EPROM ECU, you'll need to pull the numbers off of the ECU case itself. Send those to Steve or e-mail Jeff at [email protected] and he'll be able to tell you. If you do need an EPROM ECU, you can get them from Jeff at DSMChips for $260.00. As an example, here are my chip settings:

950 RPM Idle
No Airflow Cap
Octane Reset
FIC 550cc (180 global)
7500 RPM Rev Limit
No Fuel Cut
Knock Sum Boost Gauge

With respect to the AFC, or MAFT, you will not need one with Jeff's chip since he corrects for the larger injectors. You'll idle like you were on 450's and run a tiny bit rich up top so that the motor will be safe. Another great feature is to have him turn your stock boost gauge into a knock gauge so you can see if you're running too much boost and timing is being pulled. He leaves the timing maps alone unless otherwise specified by the purchaser, so on my 2G, I never go above 16 degrees at 6000 RPM and up. This allows me to run 20psi on pump gas with zero knock on a Big 16G and stock sidemount.

Overall, I can't stress how great it is to have a simple setup that just works. Provided your motor is in good working condition, there's no reason why you couldn't safely run 18psi and have a great daily driver.

Hope that helps,

Andy

P.S. I noticed you have an EVO III 16G on your wishlist. If you decide to go this route, I'd recommend the 650cc injectors and the same arrangement as above. As you get into higher boost numbers, you'll likely need either an upgraded SMIC or FMIC since the EVO III flows more air than a Big 16G.

 

[90REkTSi]

Thanks Andy for breaking it down man! So the Keydiver chip and EPROM ECU sounds like the way to go for me...The only thing i'm worried about is fuel economy and emissions. Since i'm here in Ca. do you think i'll still pass emissions and get decent gas milage? Gas prices really do suck!

One more thing about injectors, Whats the difference with disc or ball type injectors? Does price play a big roll on quality? Any recommendations...
Since i'm working with a tight budget I found some Lucas 550cc injectors on http://www.straightlinespecialties.com/index.php?cPath=24_38 website for about $220? Good deal or bad quality? Let me know what you guys think!

 

[white 2g awd]

Call me simple, but I like things that work well together without me having to constantly tweak.

Andy

kinda like me, i am just trying to build this car like it should have came from the factory, not 500hp or anything, just a simple 275-300 horse, yet still daily driver status with good response. i have the 190hp, and the keydiver chip, and couldn't be happier with them on my evo III turbo.

 

[Agent11br]

...The MAFT sounds a little more "user friendly" than the SAFC, but i'm assuming the SAFC can be fine tuned better than the MAFT? Agent11 what do you mean by "additional benefits" on the MAFT?...

Any links to my above questions would be great! Thanks again guys!

This is one of the best links I have ever read on the MAFT vs. SAFC arguements:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149095&page=1&pp=25

Here is how to install a MAFT (TEN TIMES EASIER THEN A SAFC):

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109081&highlight=maft+install

Here are pics of the MAF itself installed:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163009&page=1&pp=25

I LOVE MY MAFT SETUP!!!!

I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world other than Link and even then I would still run it and just zero it out.

It has to be the simplest way of tuning period. B/C it is non temperature dependent you can just set it and forget about it. A logger is all you need.

I run a b16g fully ported, full 3" exhaust, fmic, the 190, 3" intake and other stuff (check out my profile) and I do this all at 17psi with no creep and no knock. I ran a 13.63 my first time ever to the track with this setup on street tires, the stock clutch, and 93 octane.

I plan on getting 6xx's injectors and keydriver stage 3 chip and being done with it performance wise for a while, that would put me over 20psi on pump gas with a crapload of power. Right now I can keep up with stock C5 vettes from a roll and spank any of the heavy v8's out there (stangs, camaros, etc).

I'm not trying to be all high and mighty. What I am trying to point out is that sometimes overkill is not the way to go unless you have the right setup to make it not overkill. A 190 like you are going with and a SIMPLE tuning tool like a keydriver and/or maft will do you just fine.

Read up on that first thread and I would be willing to bet that whatever inclined you to get a SAFC over a MAFT will be long gone. K.I.S.S.

Hope that helps! I would sell MAFT setups for full throttle for free thats how much I love mine

 

[Dred]

Ok, more confused now cause of people posting 255 gives more power etc, the personwith the 13.3sec 1/4mile. He does have the numbers to prove it, and I have a little cash coming in.

Keep in mind I'm planning on doing this very soon:
Full upper and lower IC pipes (2.5inch)
Hacked can w/ 2g rewired MAF and cold air border box
2g elbow
3'-> 2' Intake w/ K&N Filter
Properly connected MBC w/ Boost gauge
*Also gettin pocket logger as soon as I'm ready to mod*

I'm not gettin an AFC or a MAFT anytime soon cause they're a bit out of range for the time being.

So, my options are somewhat unclear... again

1) Get the 190 and rewire, enjoy and be happy
2) Get the 255 and rewire and get an AFPR

Please help me pick as I am on the verge of impulse buying.

 

[BaddAssGst]

If you can say right now that you will only be doing minor modding and you are happy with that, go with the rewired 190 pump. By minor modding, I mean anything higher then 11s. Hell, someone from SB runs 11s on a 190.

About the guy with the 13.3, remember, in an AWD, that is not to hard to do. I'm not saying every AWD runs low 13s but when you can rev to 5500, dump the clutch and pull a 1.7 60', I'd say 13s are nothing.

 

[andymoraitis]

Thanks Andy for breaking it down man! So the Keydiver chip and EPROM ECU sounds like the way to go for me...The only thing i'm worried about is fuel economy and emissions. Since i'm here in Ca. do you think i'll still pass emissions and get decent gas milage? Gas prices really do suck!

One more thing about injectors, Whats the difference with disc or ball type injectors? Does price play a big roll on quality? Any recommendations...
Since i'm working with a tight budget I found some Lucas 550cc injectors on http://www.straightlinespecialties.com/index.php?cPath=24_38 website for about $220? Good deal or bad quality? Let me know what you guys think!

Glad I could help on this one. Before I forget, I remembered that you have a 1G so if you wanted to stay with your 14B, you could still run very well with it and save the money that you would have spent on a turbo for other things (like my retirement!). It's your call, but the 14B is a very capable little sucker. Now on to other news:

My car is still emissions legal (I run a full 3" from the turbo, but I do have a high flow cat) and I'm fairly sure yours will be as well. I would write Jeff and ask him if the chip has any effect on emissions testing just to be sure. With respect to fuel economy, I'm seeing around 18 in the city and around 24-25 on the highway, but your mileage (no pun intended) may vary.

As far as injectors go, I use and recommend FIC's. They're a little more expensive than Lucas, but I can verify that they work well and you should be able to pick them up for around $280.00 shipped. Ball and disc style uses multiple holes around the injector head to create a wider spray pattern that's supposed to distribute the fuel more evenly and create a wider spray pattern. Our OE Denso plugs are pintle style which has a more narrow spray pattern. The ball and disc makes sense to me, but some people debate over which is better. I personally don't worry about it as the flow in cc's is the most important factor.

Whew I'm tired! Let me know if that helps out and if you need some more info, feel free to PM me whenever you like.

Andy

 

[andymoraitis]

If you can say right now that you will only be doing minor modding and you are happy with that, go with the rewired 190 pump. By minor modding, I mean anything higher then 11s. Hell, someone from SB runs 11s on a 190.

About the guy with the 13.3, remember, in an AWD, that is not to hard to do. I'm not saying every AWD runs low 13s but when you can rev to 5500, dump the clutch and pull a 1.7 60', I'd say 13s are nothing.

Right on target with that one. It's not the individual parts that make something work, but the combination and proper tuning thereof. I still say a 190 is perfect for 80% of all applications.

Rock on!

Andy

 

[Agent11br]

Right on target with that one. It's not the individual parts that make something work, but the combination and proper tuning thereof. I still say a 190 is perfect for 80% of all applications.

Rock on!

Andy

I agree 100%

 

[jefferino]

Just to re-iterate what people have already said...190 with mild mods is more than enough

Just to back that up...my setup last season:
big ported/clipped 16g
ported o2, ported mani
rc 550s
s-afc
FMIC
190 walbro

Conservative and good tuning...317awhp/295awtq with TONS left from the injectors.
12.3@108mph on 18s....

HOWEVER, big setup resulted in me getting 255, fpr, custom fuel rail, 720s and AEM EMS. TRUST ME, if you dont need to go too big, s-afc and 190 with stock fuel rail and fpr is definitely an easy, good and least expensive way to go.

 

[Dred]

K so another real quick and hopefully last question.

Would I be ok w/ getting a 255 w/ afpr. If the 255 is too much I can tone it down a little no? Plus since I have a MBC & boost gauge and getting a logger, can't I just give more boost respectively to the lph or psi of the pump as well? I think tuning can fix the "overkill" probelm no?

 

[steve]

Would I be ok w/ getting a 255 w/ afpr.

Yes!

If the 255 is too much I can tone it down a little no?

Once you have a AFPR it's more than you need but any extra fuel just goes back to the tank harmlessly.

Plus since I have a MBC & boost gauge and getting a logger, can't I just give more boost respectively to the lph or psi of the pump as well?

As long as the pump can deliver the needed flow volume at base pressure + you max boost pressure + losses you can turn the boost up untill something else becomes a limting factor.

I think tuning can fix the "overkill" probelm no?

Nope, getting bigger injectors, turbo, etc addresses the overkill problem by using up the "overkill" (more fuel than you need with your setup) Tuning is to get the most out of what your running.

Steve

 

[FASTFWD]

i like the KISS principle.. an afpr is another 'part/mod' that can fail/leak etc.. and needless to say, most people don't even know how to set them up/fine tune them correctly.. go w/ the rewired 190.. i've had no problems w/ my old evo 16g set up, nor with my current 50 trim w/ my 190 wal(bro, what's that noise?) fuel pump... 380 whp so far, and going for more.. maybe....

 

[Dred]

i like the KISS principle.. an afpr is another 'part/mod' that can fail/leak etc.. QUOTE]

Going by that principle the right thing to do would be staying stock and buying all original parts for a dealer.

 

[heavyD]

i like the KISS principle.. an afpr is another 'part/mod' that can fail/leak etc.. and needless to say, most people don't even know how to set them up/fine tune them correctly.. go w/ the rewired 190.. i've had no problems w/ my old evo 16g set up, nor with my current 50 trim w/ my 190 wal(bro, what's that noise?) fuel pump... 380 whp so far, and going for more.. maybe....

What's so hard about attaching a pressure gauge, pulling the vacuum hose off, and setting an AFPR to 43 psi (2G)? I've got a 190 on my talon and 255/AFPR on my Eclipse and had no problems with either. Also I find both equally as loud.

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

What's so hard about attaching a pressure gauge, pulling the vacuum hose off, and setting an AFPR to 43 psi (2G)? I've got a 190 on my talon and 255/AFPR on my Eclipse and had no problems with either. Also I find both equally as loud.

I agree. I find it funny how people will go out and spend $600-700 on a really nice turbo, injectors, fuel pump, logger, and what not, but they skimp on the AFPR I thought the 190LPH was only good for around 375hp Me personally, as soon as my rings are seated and first couple oil changes are done, my 255 re-wire is going in, along with my AFPR, to work along side my stock injectors and turbo.

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

i like the KISS principle.. an afpr is another 'part/mod' that can fail/leak etc.. and needless to say, most people don't even know how to set them up/fine tune them correctly..
The stock FPR can fail too, I had mine stuck shut

 

[FASTFWD]

dred, do you know what KISS stands for? if you do, then you'd appreciate its meaning.. why add more crap than what is needed, to accomplish your goals? and WTF does the KISS principle have to do w/ not being able to mod your car? if you don't know what the hell you're doing, or don't have the $ to pay someone who knows what they're doing to fix your car, then you should stay stock...

heavyd, there's nothing hard about installing an afpr, for those that have some intelligence and mechanical ability.. personally, i don't have a need for an afpr right now.. i may eventually install one on my awd once i start modding it.. and that's only because i plan to take it over 500+ hp, utilizing a 255 pump..

turbotalon, you heard that the 190 pump is good for only 375 hp? you sure? not 376? or 374? who came up w/ that figure, the fuel pump fairy? hahaha.. do you believe everything you hear/read, especially on the internet? i sure as hell don't.. test shit out for yourself and make your OWN conclusions..

 

[Agent11br]

dred, do you know what KISS stands for? if you do, then you'd appreciate its meaning.. why add more crap than what is needed, to accomplish your goals? and WTF does the KISS principle have to do w/ not being able to mod your car? if you don't know what the hell you're doing, or don't have the $ to pay someone who knows what they're doing to fix your car, then you should stay stock...

heavyd, there's nothing hard about installing an afpr, for those that have some intelligence and mechanical ability.. personally, i don't have a need for an afpr right now.. i may eventually install one on my awd once i start modding it.. and that's only because i plan to take it over 500+ hp, utilizing a 255 pump..

turbotalon, you heard that the 190 pump is good for only 375 hp? you sure? not 376? or 374? who came up w/ that figure, the fuel pump fairy? hahaha.. do you believe everything you hear/read, especially on the internet? i sure as hell don't.. test shit out for yourself and make your OWN conclusions..

amen

 

[BaddAssGst]

I can't believe this thread is still open. His question was answered more then enough times throughout the thread.

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

dred, do you know what KISS stands for? if you do, then you'd appreciate its meaning.. why add more crap than what is needed, to accomplish your goals? and WTF does the KISS principle have to do w/ not being able to mod your car? if you don't know what the hell you're doing, or don't have the $ to pay someone who knows what they're doing to fix your car, then you should stay stock...

turbotalon, you heard that the 190 pump is good for only 375 hp? you sure? not 376? or 374? who came up w/ that figure, the fuel pump fairy? hahaha.. do you believe everything you hear/read, especially on the internet? i sure as hell don't.. test shit out for yourself and make your OWN conclusions..

Yeah, heres your fuel pump ferry http://www.diamondstarmotorsport.com/fuelparts.shtml
I actually DO produce links to where I obtain knowledge, so please, I love a person who thinks they challange me. Although there are places that say the 190 is good for 400hp, I read that it was good for 375hp.http://linux.forcedperformance.net/...FP&Product_Code=WalGSS&Category_Code=DSM-Fuel For the hell of it, I'll even entertain you, Forced Performance claims 400hp. Im sure these shops all TESTED these fuel pumps for do-it-yourself tuners, like MOST of us here. Why overtax a fuel system when you can build one with extra capacity and a bigger margin for error? I dont wanna blow my $2800 rebuild because I wanted to skimp on a small(er) fuel system that I knew I should have avoided. Its like using the stock fuel system to 16psi, can it be done? Yes, but is it a good idea, no, not by common practice. I will be using a 255 re-wire with an AFPR with stock injectors and turbo for 16-18psi. Overkill? Dont think of it that way, more like extra margin for error. But yeah, for the most part, I DONT believe everything I read/hear. Saying something stupid like that insults people's intelligence