Front Mount on 14b?

[gsx91boy]

Cooler charge temps will increase the airflow anytime the compressor can support it, End of story.

I am in 100% utter agreement.

In this instance a 14b cannot support it. THAT IS MY ENTIRE POINT.

I'm am simply trying to argue a specific instance, not theory.

-aaron

 

[kpt4321]

I'm am simply trying to argue a specific instance, not theory.

If you're trying to argue an instance and not theory, then why did you tell me I was wrong when I specifically posted that my example of increasing airflow took place when the turbo could support it?

You said that lowering the charge temperature will not increase the airflow of the compressor. It will.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

Cooler charge temps will increase the airflow anytime the compressor can support it, End of story.

Wrong. Charge temps are not cooled until going through the intercooler, thus the reason for having an efficient one. Cooler air = denser air. If you can cool the air with a more effiecient intercooler, you will be able to stuff more air into the engine. The compressor is only going to flow a certain amount of air, and no more.

 

[kpt4321]

Wrong. Charge temps are not cooled until going through the intercooler, thus the reason for having an efficient one. Cooler air = denser air. If you can cool the air with a more effiecient intercooler, you will be able to stuff more air into the engine. The compressor is only going to flow a certain amount of air, and no more.

So you're saying that you're able to stuff more air into the motor, but the turbo isn't flowing any more air?

This would cause the boost to drop. As long as the turbo is not maxxed out, as I have made clear is not the case, the boost will not drop.

 

[gsx91boy]

Ok you say this...

You said that lowering the charge temperature will not increase the airflow of the compressor. It will.

After you've said this...

Cooler charge temps will increase the airflow anytime the compressor can support it, End of story.

Then you say this...

So you're saying that you're able to stuff more air into the motor, but the turbo isn't flowing any more air?

This would cause the boost to drop. As long as the turbo is not maxxed out, as I have made clear is not the case, the boost will not drop.

When I already said the boost drops on a 14b car pushing 12's or better.

EXACTLY!!! BINGO!!! YOU GOT IT!!!!

What the #### kind of magical 14b that holds 22psi to redline do you own?

-aaron

How much clearer can I make it?

-aaron

 

[kpt4321]

My car trapped 108 mph on the 14b and it was not maxxed out.

The point is that what you are saying aplies only to cars maxing out the 14b. That's really not a lot of cars, and it's probably zero cars on pump gas. The original poster made zero mention of the conditions his car would be under when he inquired if the FMIC would be in improvement. As such, it can be assumed that he means the conditions he will see, and the conditions the majority of the people reading this will see.

You are correct that in certain, very limited, circumstances, the addition of a FMIC may not give you a large gain. However, how that makes me wrong, or a moron as you originally suggested, is something I don't quite understand. Most of the time, it does help.

 

[gsx91boy]

My car trapped 108 mph on the 14b and it was not maxxed out.

The point is that what you are saying aplies only to cars maxing out the 14b. That's really not a lot of cars, and it's probably zero cars on pump gas. The original poster made zero mention of the conditions his car would be under when he inquired if the FMIC would be in improvement. As such, it can be assumed that he means the conditions he will see, and the conditions the majority of the people reading this will see.

You are correct that in certain, very limited, circumstances, the addition of a FMIC may not give you a large gain. However, how that makes me wrong, or a moron as you originally suggested, is something I don't quite understand. Most of the time, it does help.

Ok look, going back to page one, 95turbotalon was quick to point out that a FMIC is not the penultimate option for every setup and every situation, to which all your dsmt00ners newbies sucked your "wiseman of the n00bs" #### by attacking 95turbotalon, when he was in fact making a valid point.

A 108mph trap is getting very near the limits of max power of a 14b, especially if you are full weight. Anything remotely near this power level is begging to ask a lot of the 14b, and the boost pressure will not hold because the airflow demands are high.

It is not entirely too difficult to run 12's on a 14b, which is purely why I decided to make it clear that a FMIC with a 14b may not be for everyone. It's fine that you believe that it's a good ap for the majority of people, but don't be quick to dismiss what you say = law.

And, on a more personal level, don't try to take the high route by pointing out I called you a moron. Your comebacks included "youre going ####ing down" "retard" and saying that you will "####ing own" me when we talked on AIM. I hate your arrogance. Look at your personal website for christs sake - how many tech articles do you need to paraphrase off of what you have read throughout forums and gewgle and decided to graciously interpret for us lamen?

Burn in hell.

I fully expect that some DSMt00ners mod will take offense and ban me because one of their wisemen that they appointed has been regurgitating misinformation, and is being called out for it. So, that's all for me kids. Enjoy yer newbie forum.

-aaron

 

[kpt4321]

Ok look, going back to page one, 95turbotalon was quick to point out that a FMIC is not the penultimate option for every setup and every situation, to which all your dsmt00ners newbies sucked your "wiseman of the n00bs" #### by attacking 95turbotalon, when he was in fact making a valid point.

He was not making a valid point.

I said, and I quote, that a FMIC is a good mod no matter what turbo you have. The poster was concerned because some people will say that a 14b is "too small." That simply is not true, like I said, the FMIC is a good idea for any turbo.

95turbotalon didn't make a point. He just said I was wrong. I'd like you to debate my point, but it's just not possible. A FMIC is a good mod for any turbo.

If he had stated that a FMIC will not make much of a difference on race gas, or on a car maxing out its turbo, I would have agreed with him 100%. But he didn't. He acted like a douche and said that I was incorrect in general, which is not true.

It is not entirely too difficult to run 12's on a 14b, which is purely why I decided to make it clear that a FMIC with a 14b may not be for everyone. It's fine that you believe that it's a good ap for the majority of people, but don't be quick to dismiss what you say = law.

As Mirage2LTurbo said earlier, cooler charge temps are a good thing, regardless. A more efficienct intercooler will give you cooler charge temps, regardless. Therefore, a FMIC is a good thing, regardless. That is exactly what I said initially, and exactly what you and 95TurboTalon disagreed with me about.

And, on a more personal level, don't try to take the high route by pointing out I called you a moron. Your comebacks included "youre going ####ing down" "retard" and saying that you will "####ing own" me when we talked on AIM. I hate your arrogance. Look at your personal website for christs sake

I'm not taking the high route. I'm being just as much of a douche as you are.

My problem was the initial debate. As I said, my quote that a FMIC is a good mod on any turbo, stands, and will stand. Cooler charge temps are better, end of story.

As such, the fact that you and he began this discussion with calling me a moron, really pisses me off. I'm a moron because I think cooler charge temps are always better? I think not.

And not only that, but your only real arguement has been that in 5% of the situations, a FMIC won't be a huge benefit. That's it. I will agree wholeheartdly to that, I'd like you to show me where I disagreed.

how many tech articles do you need to paraphrase off of what you have read throughout forums and gewgle and decided to graciously interpret for us lamen?

My information is generally not garnered from forums, as then it would likely be wrong. It is, however, most definately more basic, and definately not for a more advanced DSM'er. However, I don't see anywhere that I claimed they were advanced, or for more advanced tuners. They were written specifically for the purpose of helping newbies get off in the right direction, and for that I feel they have been successful.

Burn in hell.

Thank you.

I fully expect that some DSMt00ners mod will take offense and ban me because one of their wisemen that they appointed has been regurgitating misinformation, and is being called out for it. So, that's all for me kids. Enjoy yer newbie forum.

I have yet to see the post where you proved I was regurgitating misinformation. The fact that you even suggest that really pisses me off. I said that a FMIC will be a good thing no matter what, and that's that. Where is the misinformation in that? I also discussed some of the ramifications of charge temp differences with intercooler differences, where are the ramifications in that?

You've been a douche this whole time, only to admit now that you were arguing about 5% of the instances that occur. I would have agreed with you right off the bat if you had said "KPT, in some situations a FMIC is not nearly as beneficial as others."

However, you didn't say that. You acted like you were tough shit by posting a ton of random crap that was totally irrelevant, such as the fact that people have run 12.0's on the SMIC, and that you know someone who runs 20 psi daily. What does that have to do with whether or not a FMIC is a good idea?

 

[gsx91boy]

ok, i think we can end the pissing match via pm currently.

On a civil note, i brought up 20psi daily because of another poster.

The thread was about a FMIC on a 14b was it not?

Let's be very specific here.

Plenty of people have ran 12's on 14b and race gas. If your goals are to maximize the 14b on race gas, a FMIC may prove to show no gain what-so-ever for reasons scattered throughout the thread in this specific application which is what was being discussed and to which I make no other claim in my original post.

On track?

I am a douche, I can't deal with online forums.

-aaron

 

[kpt4321]

Anyone interested in our octane burn rate and ignition advance discussion via AIM is welcome to the logs. You may draw your own conclusions.

http://www.kydsm.com/media/2004-05-23nSundayn.html

I wonder why this hasn't been updated.

You guys missed the part where he said that he was a qualified EE guru of some sort, and then said that a bit was equal to a byte...

Not to mention the fact that he never finished the discussion he asked to start.

Or the fact that as you can see, I IM'd him to try to resolve something he posted here...

:thumbdown

 

[gsx91boy]

What about the part of that conversation where you contradict yourself entirely?

Don't try to knock his discredibility because he was false in assuming or believing a few things, we're all guilty of that - look at both of us throughout this whole thread. I can pinpoint several instances where we both said something stupid.

-aaron

 

[kpt4321]

What about the part of that conversation where you contradict yourself entirely?

Where is it?

 

[gsx91boy]

Ok, kpt, since you signed off on me, again as I stated in my posts, a FMIC will show gains in almost every condition except when you are running race gas, a 14b, and running fast times.

I apologize for calling you wrong and saying you were spreading misinformation. We were simply discussing different situations, and I was wholy unclear that you were sticking to your previous declared situation throughout the discussion and throughout your theory mumble jumbo, and you were unclear that I was discussing a maxed 14b only fmic vs smic.

The purpose of my post was to illustrate that anyone desiring respectable times out of a 14b on race gas need-not shell out for a pricey FMIC, but if you're a DIYer by all means.

I hope we can end this now.

-aaron

 

[Stealth_Racing]

Although not a FMIC I have seen some gains with a supra side mount , how is this possible ?? Should it not benefit the power output in any way if I put a FMIC??

 

[Bohrn]

ok, 3 things.

1.) Kyle knows his shit. (and thats a BIG period on the end)

2.) a 20g pulls 44lbs/min, not comparable to a well tuned 14b at, what was it 27-30?

3.) I also have JUST finished installing a Saab Viggen cooler, and it is a good setup. Glad to see I am not the only one. I have had it for 3 months tho, awaiting on the piping, so I might have been the first?

 

[95TalonTuner]

ok, 3 things.

1.) Kyle knows his shit. (and thats a BIG period on the end)

reread the thread.

 

[bastarddsm]

gsx91boy- your just like a bunch of my buddies taht play with dirtbike and quads. You know they throw a huge pumper carb on a stock displacement 400ex with a top end cam and stock head pipes, and they wonder why my wore out xr350 smokes em. or with there big four wheel drives the put a cam that don't work untill 4500rpm with a stock convertor. or snowmobiles, they port em and them put pies on them made to run in a differnt range thatn the porting and then they don't even do any clutching. Your that kind of person.

It's very simple ya see. I am new to the whole turbocharger thing, but i know one thing if you put a more efficient intercooler on any forced induction engine it will make more power. If you can't understand that then sell your car and go get a 420a car and practice your faulty methods on it.

 

[gsx91boy]

gsx91boy- your just like a bunch of my buddies taht play with dirtbike and quads. You know they throw a huge pumper carb on a stock displacement 400ex with a top end cam and stock head pipes, and they wonder why my wore out xr350 smokes em. or with there big four wheel drives the put a cam that don't work untill 4500rpm with a stock convertor. or snowmobiles, they port em and them put pies on them made to run in a differnt range thatn the porting and then they don't even do any clutching. Your that kind of person.

It's very simple ya see. I am new to the whole turbocharger thing, but i know one thing if you put a more efficient intercooler on any forced induction engine it will make more power. If you can't understand that then sell your car and go get a 420a car and practice your faulty methods on it.

Ok you're the one that doesn't understand that if you are reaching the end of the abilities of your turbo adding cooling will not offset the turbos inability to flow any more air. KPT even knows this - we were simply discussing different scenarios if you reread everything.

For the record I never once said a FMIC wont add power in every other instance, so maybe you guys should get your facts straight.

-aaron

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

I wonder why this hasn't been updated.

You guys missed the part where he said that he was a qualified EE guru of some sort, and then said that a bit was equal to a byte...

Not to mention the fact that he never finished the discussion he asked to start.

Or the fact that as you can see, I IM'd him to try to resolve something he posted here...

:thumbdown

And you're the one that said to rewrite a stock ECU, you just "open the file and read uncompiled hex code"

And EE? No, A+, Net+, Sec+, CCNA/NP/DA, MCSA

Stop googling articles and thinking you know everything. Thanks

Thanks

-Colin

 

[Chargedawd]

Kevin Jewer did see gains out of his supra sidemount. 3 mph on a 14b on race gas. He started heat soaking it when he went to the 50trim. After that he picked up some more mph and better ET's. I have a supra sidemount now and it does work well, I can do back to back pulls and my upper pipe is nice and cool. I would be better off using a front mount but I am a pump gas person too.

 

[kpt4321]

reread the thread.

You know, I have yet to see a good post from you.

I said, and I quote:

A FMIC is a good mod, no matter what turbo you have.

That's a true statement. I have yet to hear any reason why it's not. Gsx91boy and I have gone back and fourth all day about how effective it is under extreme conditions, but as Mirage2LTurbo said, lower charge temps are always better. A better intercooler will always lower your charge temps, and therefore it is always better. End of story.

Then, you made some kind of comment insinuating I didn't know what I was talking about.

If you have ANYTHING you want to actuallyt contribure, or any kind of legitimate point you want to make, feel free. Otherwise, you can pipe down.

 

[kpt4321]

And you're the one that said to rewrite a stock ECU, you just "open the file and read uncompiled hex code"

Shortly afterwards, I corrected myself to say that I meant compiled. You can do that, and if you don't believe me you can read the thread on this forum, or talk to the people who have been doing it.

Stop googling articles and thinking you know everything. Thanks

Where did I ever bring up a Googled article?

You're just pissed because you thought octane was directly related to burn rate (it's not), and because you were wrong about a bunch of other nuances, such as your thought that you wanted to exert force at TDC. Um, yeah. Right.

 

[kpt4321]

Ok you're the one that doesn't understand that if you are reaching the end of the abilities of your turbo adding cooling will not offset the turbos inability to flow any more air. KPT even knows this - we were simply discussing different scenarios if you reread everything.

For the record I never once said a FMIC wont add power in every other instance, so maybe you guys should get your facts straight.

Even if the turbo can't flow more air, the intercooler will still cause that 40 degree (approximate) drop in charge temp. Whether or not that gives you any more airflow, yet again, lower charge temps are always better.

Therefore, even if you are maxing out a turbo, you will still see a benefit with a better intercooler, simply not as pronounced as you would have if the turbo was not maxxed out.

Thus, a FMIC will still be helpful, you just don't notice it *as much*.

 

[Chargedawd]

Kyle,

If a 14b is at its max rate of eefiency a bigger FMIC will lower charge temps correct? Then that same air (max output of the 14b) will be cooler, more dense so in turn you would get more timing advance, correct me if im wrong. I cant say for sure of actual #'s but when I adjust timing from 15 to 20 I feel a seat of the pants increase.

So I would agree if what I think holds true a FMIC would give you gains all around, even on race gas. Timing makes power. Correct me if Im wrong

 

[kpt4321]

If a 14b is at its max rate of eefiency a bigger FMIC will lower charge temps correct? Then that same air (max output of the 14b) will be cooler, more dense so in turn you would get more timing advance, correct me if im wrong. I cant say for sure of actual #'s but when I adjust timing from 15 to 20 I feel a seat of the pants increase.

You're on the right track man.

You don't "get" more timing advance (ie, it doesn't just happy) but the lower charge temp does allow you to advance the timing more when tuning, without reaching the knock threshhold.

The reason you don't notice this *as much* on race gas, is because the knock threshhold of the fuel is so damned high anyway.

Something interesting to note is that if you're not knocking on 117, you might want to try going down in octane value. You will probably make power power if you're closer to the knock threshhold of the fuel, with the same settings.

So I would agree if what I think holds true a FMIC would give you gains all around, even on race gas. Timing makes power. Correct me if Im wrong

You are correct. It's simply that on race gas, the difference is not as large. The difference still sure does exist though!