Front Mount on 14b?

[kpt4321]

Oh, btw, Kevin Jewer, kpt knows him , failed to get significant gain out of a mkiv smic on race gas.

That is 100% true.

Why don't you ask Kevin what kind of an intercooler he runs now? It's a huge FMIC, for the record. Why? Because he makes a lot of power on PUMP GAS.

You could probably pull the SMIC off a 14b equiped car on race gas, run a straight pipe, and still keep it from knocking. That doesn't prove anything about the SMIC, it just proves that race gas doesn't knock very easily.

Who gives a shit? I don't. Nobody said we were only talking about race gas, and we're not. We're talking about a car that a person drives on race gas and pump gas, and the odds are more on pump gas than anything else.

 

[Mitsuturbo]

I just got done with a Saab Viggen FMIC install on my GVR4 (yesterday). It made a big difference.

http://www.galantvr4.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=005238

there are pics of it before i got the fascia back on and finished mounting it, but it worked out REALLY well.. i now run 16psi on 9:1 compression with NO KNOCK whatsoever, and it feels like 20 psi on race gas used to (before the fmic). I was running 15 psi and getting knock in 4th before.

 

[gsx91boy]

However, those cars are all running race gas, and that makes intercooling almost inconsequential. The power gained from the denser charge air is a moot point when you can run well over 20 psi on race gas, meaning that you're going to max out the flow capacity of the 14b regardless of what kind of charge temps you are seeing.

Let's not even bring up race gas, that's not the discussion at hand. If we're talking about all-around performance, on a lighter modded car, we are concerned equally, if not moreso, with pump gas performance.

You can max out a 14b on stock smic and piping with race gas. Majority of gains of a FMIC over 1g SMIC would be felt daily on pump gas. Race gas has enough knock suppresion to overboost a 14b.

Learn to read, ok?

-aaron

 

[gsx91boy]

Who gives a shit? I don't. Nobody said we were only talking about race gas, and we're not. We're talking about a car that a person drives on race gas and pump gas, and the odds are more on pump gas than anything else.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

That IS what I'm talking about. Never did I claim a different intercooler WOULDN'T make gains on PUMP GAS. I was arguing race gas. Can you not see this?

Pull your head out of your ass. You're putting words in my mouth that I never said.

Clearly on race gas a 14b can be maxed out on a smic, which is all that matter - you don't see people running low 12's on 14b on pump gas, so all you on pump gas running 14b's can keep dreaming of being fast. I'm not trying to turn this into a pump vs. race discussion, but that is my point - if you want to be fast, you use race gas, and you don't have to mess around with upgrading from a smic.

-aaron

 

[Mitsuturbo]

The viggen fmic DOES have almost exactly 3x the front surface area a sidemount or stock GVR4 ic does.
For the $205 total investment i have into it, including all mandrel bent pipe and silicone couplers.. it can't be beat, and the vanes in it probably about equal the size of my ic piping. 8 vanes, 1/4" thick with some cooling fins inside (not too much) and 2.25" deep would probably about equal 2.5" total airflow area.
If anyone tells you that the plastic endtanks are going to crack, break, etc. I wouldn't put too much stock in it. The MK IV Poopra SMIC has plastic endtanks.. and they work fine. I have been told by some 1.8t VW guys though.. that if you spray it with CO2 or the like, then they have had their plastic tanks crack.

It's an upgrade.. just get it and mount it, you will like it. They were recently on natl. backorder and retail at the dealer for upwards of $500. I would buy one for the $160 you're probably going to pay on ebay lately and be happy with it. It does not matter what turbo you're running. You WILL notice gains with the ol' "butt dyno".

 

[gsx91boy]

You're ####ing going down.

Want to talk about compressor efficiency? Fine.

Let's start with some base numbers. At 400 CFM of airflow (close to, but not quite, the limit for a 14b), and a PR of 2.5 (which is 19 psi of manifold pressure assuming 1.5 psi of pressure drop through the intercooler, and about 1 psi of pressure drop before the compressor inlet (14.0 psi inlet pressure, absolute), a 14b is about 70% efficient. What does that mean? Well, first of all, it means that the compressor outlet temperatures are going to be in the 290*F range, assuming intake temps at 70 degrees farenheight. Running a couple more numbers assuming mild cams (like HSK 264's) brings us to about 27 lb/min of airflow at 7000 rpm.

Let's see what happens when we throw an intercooler in the mix. First, we'll use the stock SMIC *before* it starts to heat soak, and we'll use an efficiency of about 70%. That will bring the temperatures at the throttle body down to 140*F, which brings the total airflow up to 34 lb/min. Now, as you should know, 34 lb/min is more than the 14b can handle, which means that you're probably going to be making the most power possible here.

What happens when the stock SMIC starts to heat soak?

The charge temp rises to over 180*F!!! This will equate to about 7% more mass airflow, which is around 20 horsepower lost at the airflow levels we are discussing. JUST FROM THE LOSS IN AIR DENSITY. The subsequent loss in power from the richer A/F ratio and less agressive timing needed to cope with this rising intake temp will bring that power loss into the 30 hp OR MORE region.

What happens when we throw a decent FMIC on there? Well, you will see more like 75% intercooler efficiency, but with less pressure drop, and with no heat soak.

Right off the bat, you gain a couple horsepower due to the lesser pressure drop through the intercooler's core. In addition, the 5% extra intercooler efficiency will gain you 2% more air density, over the case of the fully efficient SMIC, and about 9% mre air density over the stock SMIC when it's heat soaked.

Hmm. 30 horsepower seems like a lot to me, especially at 300 horsepower.

Not to mention the temperature difference. 180*F with a heat soaked SMIC, and about 125*F with a FMIC. I personally have seen charge temps a little bit higher than that, in the 190*F region, on pump gas, on the 14b. Do you want to talk about how much charge temps close to 200*F will #### up your tuning? The loss of power from the lesser air density is only half the problem here too, you'll end up losing a bunch more power because of tuning differences.



This is true, especially on pump gas, and ESPECIALLY with an inefficient SMIC.

However, I don't know what this has to do with the arguement. Yes, you can max out the 14b. What does that have to do with FMIC's?



Definately. My car went 12.8 @ 108, with not only the stock SMIC, but the stock injectors and no fuel control too.

However, those cars are all running race gas, and that makes intercooling almost inconsequential. The power gained from the denser charge air is a moot point when you can run well over 20 psi on race gas, meaning that you're going to max out the flow capacity of the 14b regardless of what kind of charge temps you are seeing.

Let's not even bring up race gas, that's not the discussion at hand. If we're talking about all-around performance, on a lighter modded car, we are concerned equally, if not moreso, with pump gas performance.



Good for him!

I ran 102 mph at 16 psi on the 14b with stock injectors. I am sure the car is faster this year, with the bigger injectors, etc. However, I'm still buying a FMIC.

Once again, that doesn't prove any kind of a point. Are you going to try to tell me that since someone has done something, it's the best way to go?

Buschur ran 7's on a 2 speed powerglide transmission, does that make it a good idea for your street car?

Not only that, but just because something works for him does not mean it is optimal.



This is very true, becaue I run 17-18 psi on a 14b and SMIC with no knock all the time. Want to know something even more interesting? I used to run 19-20 psi, also with no knock. Guess what happened when I turned the boost down to 17 psi and retuned? The car got faster.

Why is this, you may be asking? Tuning is just a big compromise. In order to extract the maximum power from a vehicle, you need to find the best set of parameters for the system. You will never optimize timing, fuel, and boost, and ESPECIALLY not on a 14b and SMIC equipped car.

Because of the high charge temperatures associated with the stock SMIC, I am forced to run an A/F ratio that is not very close to optimal, and I am also forced to run conservative timing advance. If the charge temperatures would come down, I would be able to advance the timing some more, and lean out the mixture. What does that mean? More power. As such, I have just proved that a FMIC will increase the output of my vehicle.




Bull. The SMIC will heat soak in a single third gear pull, just not fully. From a stop to fourth gear, you're damned right it will heat soak.

Don't believe me? Get a charge temperature gauge. Watch it when you hit full boost. If your boost level is constant, the charge temperautre should remain a flat line if the intercooler is not heat soaking. Can you guess what this line looks like on a SMIC car? I'll give you a hint, it's not flat.



Wait, WTF? Did you just admit that a FMIC would gain you power over a SMIC? What the ####? Why are you arguing with me, when that is exactly what I said above?

You're retarted.

First of all, I'm glad you can play with online equations for turbos, congrats you can do basic math, I'm so proud of you .

Secondly, all those equations don't mean shit when it comes to real life.

Thirdly you claim and intercooler is going to make your turbo magically flow more...

That will bring the temperatures at the throttle body down to 140*F, which brings the total airflow up to 34 lb/min.

So if we used an aftercooler that brought temps back down to 70 deg F we'd be flowing well over 34 lb/min, gimme a break. Cooling a charge does not introduce more air into a closed system. You can cool it all you want, a 14b will not flow like a 20g.

You quote 7000rpm, like a 14b and 1g cams are really breathing up there Looking at your precious turbo efficiency islands you should realize that a 14b can't keep up up top and you're outflowing it therefore becoming highly less efficient. Holy crap, let's calculate our intake temps now and calculate the hp loss!!!! Too the online equations batman!!!

I cited real life examples. That's all that matters. You can bench race, or you can go off what you know.

-aaron

 

[Mitsuturbo]

GSX91BOY.. the point is here.. the FMIC this kid is talking about getting is an upgrade.. for the money he'd be into it, it's well worth it.

It seems like with your posts.. you're discouraging use of a FMIC with a 14b. Is this the case? If so what are you smoking? Because i'd like to try some too, if it changes one's perception to such a level that one would believe that a FMIC added to a setup with a 14b just isn't going to help out enough to be worth it, it must be some fun stuff. If NOT, then what is all this arguing about?

 

[kpt4321]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

That IS what I'm talking about. Never did I claim a different intercooler WOULDN'T make gains on PUMP GAS. I was arguing race gas. Can you not see this?

Pull your head out of your ass. You're putting words in my mouth that I never said.

Clearly on race gas a 14b can be maxed out on a smic, which is all that matter - you don't see people running low 12's on 14b on pump gas, so all you on pump gas running 14b's can keep dreaming of being fast. I'm not trying to turn this into a pump vs. race discussion, but that is my point - if you want to be fast, you use race gas, and you don't have to mess around with upgrading from a smic.

Race gas is a crutch. With an efficient setup, you can go just as fast on pump gas as you can on race gas. Actually, with a really good setup you could go faster on pump because it contains more energy per mass unit of fuel.

Edited since some people are special ed: When I say hat with an efficienct setup you could make more power on pump gas than race gas, I mean really efficient. More efficient than any of the cars here. This was simply an interesting point, that I think is cool. That's all. I'm sorry if you freaked out and started running 87 octane in your car becuase you took me way too seriously.

If someone like Dre was to run race gas, he probably wouldn't gain any power at all.

The person who started this thread asked if a FMIC would be beneficial for them with their 14b. My answer was yes. I never said yes, on race gas. I just said it would help. Since you agree with me, based on some of your quotes above, why the hel did you start an arguement and call me a moron?

 

[gsx91boy]

GSX91BOY.. the point is here.. the FMIC this kid is talking about getting is an upgrade.. for the money he'd be into it, it's well worth it.

It seems like with your posts.. you're discouraging use of a FMIC with a 14b. Is this the case? If so what are you smoking? Because i'd like to try some too, if it changes one's perception to such a level that one would believe that a FMIC added to a setup with a 14b just isn't going to help out enough to be worth it, it must be some fun stuff. If NOT, then what is all this arguing about?

My argument is that a FMIC is simply not needed to maximize performance of a 14b, period. That is the truth.

To improve performance daily on pump gas if you want to pay for it, by all means go ahead if you want to spend the money.

-aaron

 

[gsx91boy]

Actually, with a really good setup you could go faster on pump because it contains more energy per mass unit of fuel.

If someone like Dre was to run race gas, he probably wouldn't gain any power at all.

HAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA.

You know something that Buschur, Shep, etc don't buddy. More knock suppresion = more boost = more power, but I guess we'll live in your pump gas > * world

-aaron

 

[Mitsuturbo]

in all fairness, i think that a FMIC with a 14b would net more of a percentage of a gain than a FMIC with a larger turbocharger.. larger turbochargers are generally more efficient at the same boost levels when compared to a 14b.. a 14b at 19psi is in more need of some sort of help to get the charge air cooled than say.. a 20g is at 19psi
granted.. the 20g at 19psi with a FMIC is going to make a LOT more power, but the PERCENTAGE of HP gained may not be as high

 

[Mitsuturbo]

Furthermore.. if this kid is running a 14b, it's a safe bet that his car is not a trailer queen and seeing lots of race fuel.

 

[kpt4321]

First of all, I'm glad you can play with online equations for turbos, congrats you can do basic math, I'm so proud of you .

Actually, the equations are in a spreadsheet I made for the purpose of analyzing motor setups. Doesn't make a difference though, in order to use them you need to get them form somewhere (I got them from a book, but what's the difference).

Secondly, all those equations don't mean shit when it comes to real life.

HAHA!

Please explain to me why automotive turbocharger systems do not follow the laws of physics. I'd like to hear it.

Thirdly you claim and intercooler is going to make your turbo magically flow more...

A more efficient intercooler will lower the charge temperature. If you lower the charge temperature and keep the boost level constant, you have increased the density of the air entering the motor. That means more flow.

The turbo just flows whatever the motor is taking in at that pressure level at that point in time, as long as it can.

If you want to argue basic laws of chemistry, I'd love to. Put it in the newbie forum though, ok?

So if we used an aftercooler that brought temps back down to 70 deg F we'd be flowing well over 34 lb/min, gimme a break. Cooling a charge does not introduce more air into a closed system.

It's not a closed system, it's airflow through a pump.

Yes, bringing the charge temps down wold increase the airflow.

Think about it. You have the same pressure, but you have more "stuff" in a set volume because of the lower temperature (lower average molecular kinetic energy). The motor is going to flow a net of more mass airflow.

You can cool it all you want, a 14b will not flow like a 20g.

Where did I say that it would?

A 14b compressor wheel can flow just as much as a 20g compressor wheel on a 4G63 at low boost pressures (under 15 psi).

You quote 7000rpm, like a 14b and 1g cams are really breathing up there

Remember that "learn to read" thing you said to me a few inutes ago? You should try it. I specifically said that we were talking about a car with 264's, or other similar mild cam.

Is there any reason a 14b can't supply the airflow up there? Nope.

Looking at your precious turbo efficiency islands you should realize that a 14b can't keep up up top and you're outflowing it therefore becoming highly less efficient. Holy crap, let's calculate our intake temps now and calculate the hp loss!!!! Too the online equations batman!!!

Not highly less efficient, but less efficient. Agreed. Where are you going with this?

Yet again, you have stated that a 14b doesn't flow air when you max it out. DUH. Where did anyone argue about that? Oh, wait, nobody did, because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I cited real life examples. That's all that matters. You can bench race, or you can go off what you know.

You cited examples of things that people did, which did absolutely nothing to support any point you tried to make.

Blaha ran 10's on the 1g MAF. Does that mean that upgrading to a different MAF will not yeild a power gain until you run 10's too?

The fact that somone did something using a part does nothing to back up the point that another part may be better.

Leon R has run 11's on the 14b. Does that mean it's better than the 16g? Of course, you're going to say no, because the 16g has run faster times. Of course, the FMIC has run faster times than a SMIC...

I'd like to know why I am bench racing. I have firsthand seen these effects of turbo efficiency and SMIC efficiency and heat soak, and the subsequent tuning and airflow changes.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

Race gas is a crutch. With an efficient setup, you can go just as fast on pump gas as you can on race gas. Actually, with a really good setup you could go faster on pump because it contains more energy per mass unit of fuel.

Damn, where have I been. All this time running 35psi on race gas, I should just retune for pump. Think pump gas could take 35psi and 25deg advance?

If someone like Dre was to run race gas, he probably wouldn't gain any power at all.

Actually, he probably would, because his engine wouldn't be knocking itself to death. I have yet to see Dre make a pass on it. On top of that, 50 trim's are no where NEAR capable of blowing 500whp, and if he's just spinning that thing all to hell and back, with a HUGE hotside, there is no pump gas on god's green earth to save him from detonation. Just look at his dyno, smoothing on full, still chops all over the place.

The person who started this thread asked if a FMIC would be beneficial for them with their 14b. My answer was yes. I never said yes, on race gas. I just said it would help. Since you agree with me, based on some of your quotes above, why the hel did you start an arguement and call me a moron?

Tool. FMIC's will benefit you no matter what turbo you are on. Any cooler intake charge will benefit you, hands down, end of discussion.

 

[kpt4321]

You know something that Buschur, Shep, etc don't buddy. More knock suppresion = more boost = more power, but I guess we'll live in your pump gas > * world

Did you read what I said? I specifically made it clear that such was only true with very efficienct setups. Isn't it obvious to you that maybe the setups of the people you just mentioned simply are not efficient enough to run pump gas safetly?

more knock suppression = more boost = more power. LMFAO. It's really that simple, right.

 

[kpt4321]

Damn, where have I been. All this time running 35psi on race gas, I should just retune for pump. Think pump gas could take 35psi and 25deg advance?

Let's not get into a pump gas vs. race gas discussion.

On your setup, pump gas probably could not, no. On a more effieient setup though, yeah, maybe it could.

Tool. FMIC's will benefit you no matter what turbo you are on. Any cooler intake charge will benefit you, hands down, end of discussion.

WTF?

That's what I have been saying THE ENTIRE TIME. That's what I said IN THE POST YOU QUOTED?

How can you call me a tool, and then say the exact same thing I have been saying?

 

[Amallick]

a frontmount will benefit a 14b greatly, not to mention the efficientcy of stock sidemounts. on another note, i love internet banter.

 

[gsx91boy]

A more efficient intercooler will lower the charge temperature. If you lower the charge temperature and keep the boost level constant, you have increased the density of the air entering the motor. That means more flow.

Yes, bringing the charge temps down wold increase the airflow.

Sorry, but you are wrong.

Also, you are wrong about pump gas. What the hell kind of optimal setup are you talking about?

-aaron

 

[Mitsuturbo]

Sorry, but you are wrong.

Also, you are wrong about pump gas. What the hell kind of optimal setup are you talking about?

-aaron

OK, if this is incorrect, then why does a cooler air charge make more horsepower at the same boost levels?

 

[kpt4321]

Sorry, but you are wrong.

I'd like an explination right now then.

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

Anyone interested in our octane burn rate and ignition advance discussion via AIM is welcome to the logs. You may draw your own conclusions.

http://www.kydsm.com/media/2004-05-23nSundayn.html

 

[gsx91boy]

OK, if this is incorrect, then why does a cooler air charge make more horsepower at the same boost levels?

Ok listen. I'm not discussing a general theory. I am discussing a very specific instance - in this case a 14b powered 4g63 dsm.

There is a point that you will reach with a 14b that race gas can eliminate the knock of a hotter charge from being overdriven for airflow. A more efficient intercooler then a smic is not going to allow you to make power, because a smic is sufficient enough for the entire setup.

A 14b 4g63 will always drop off in pressure in the upper rpms because the turbo cannot keep up with the airflow demands of the motor. A mild cam will simply emphasize this problem. The problem is when your motor is demanding more airflow, yet the pressure levels remain the same or decrease, you are going downwards in the efficiency.

The offset in efficiency is made up with an intercooler, to which a smic is sufficient enough in race gas situations.

Fine, a more efficient intercooler may supposedly allow you to flow more airflow, however more airflow may also result in more heat when you have already reached peak efficiency for the turbo, which is the reason you use an intercooler isn't it? So in the end you end up with the same airflow for the same reasons that lower boost more efficient boost flows the same as hotter higher boost.

-aaron

 

[kpt4321]

Compressor flow vs. Engine Flow vs. Charge Temp

Since this obviously needs an explaination, here you go:

The turbo does not flow a set quantity of air, look at a compressor map. It has a range of airflow that it can flow. What determines where in the range the compressor is flowing at any given point? The amount of air the motor can recieve under the conditions at the set boost level. Basically, the turbo just flows more air than the motor can recieve, and that is exactly what causes there to be a pressurization of the intake system. As this pressure increases, the mass of the air increases, and the total mass flow of the motor increases. This is why a turbo allows for more power.

Since we regulate the manifold pressure, the amount of air that the turbo is flowing is totally dependant on the amount of air that the motor can recieve under the conditions. If you don't understand the ideal gas law, or just the general manner in which gasses behave, then this won't make sense to you. If that is the case, please just say something and I or someone else will explain it. Basically, what happens is the turbo throws a bunch of air at the motor, and as such the pressure increases. This is the same thing that happens when they fill something with pressurized air, like a welding tank. They toss in more molecules than the cannister could hold at atmospheric pressure, and thus the pressure increases. This is the same way a motor works, the turbo tosses in more molecules than the motor would hold at zero psi of pressure, and thus the pressure increases, the moleculer flow of the motor (mass flow) increases, and power increases.

Now, when the wastegate is closed, this is just a constant increase. The turbo keeps giving the motor more and more air, and the pressure in the intake manifold keeps increasing.

However, then you reach the boost pressure that the wastegate is set to regulate to. The turbo is not given all of the energy it can recieve, and it stops pumping as much air as it possibly can. With the wastegate, the turbo is allowed to reach a point where it throws the right amount of air mass at the motor to sustain the desired pressure.

Then, what happens if you add a more efficient intercooler? The charge temperature drops. If you have the same desired boost pressure in the manifold and a lower charge temperature, then the density of the air entering the motor increases. This increased density means that the motor will flow a greater air mass in the same time period, because more air molecules are jumping into the cylinder when the intake valve opens.

What would happen if the turbo was locked at a certain airflow? The boost level would drop. If the turbo was locked at a certain airflow, but the motor was suddenly able to flow more air (as proved above), then the pressure in the manifold would decrease. To go back to the welding gas container example above, if you had a container filled with welding gas, and you suddenly made it bigger, the pressure would drop. Or, to be more specific, if you made it cooler, the pressure would drop. You can prove this simply by putting a baloon in the fridge!

In order to maintain the same pressure, the amount of air (or airflow, in a pumping system like an engine) must increase.

If the amount of airflow didn't increase, the boost would drop. However, the system with the wastegate cannot allow this. When the boost tries to drop, the compressor recieves more energy and it therefore flows more air, to maintain constant pressure.

 

[gsx91boy]

In order to maintain the same pressure, the amount of air (or airflow, in a pumping system like an engine) must increase.

If the amount of airflow didn't increase, the boost would drop.

EXACTLY!!! BINGO!!! YOU GOT IT!!!!

What the #### kind of magical 14b that holds 22psi to redline do you own?

-aaron

 

[kpt4321]

EXACTLY!!! BINGO!!! YOU GOT IT!!!!

What the #### kind of magical 14b that holds 22psi to redline do you own?

What does holding pressure to redline have to do with anything?

Cooler charge temps will increase the airflow anytime the compressor can support it, End of story.