fresh rebuild, car running like crap

[sweet97]

Those 02 voltages are good at WOT and perhaps you have reached the limit of your afpr. Have you tried a richer base setting? Did you mean the maft setting richer mmade no difference? Cams will cause the low vac reading. Mark

 

[dewdew]

I did a new boost leak test and believe my turbo is bad. When I connected air at turbo inlet it would only take about 10 sec to bleed of from 20psi to zero. When I connected after turbo in LICP it would take about 15 sec to bleed from 20psi to 10psi, and about a full minute to get to zero. I could also hear some leakage from the valve cover. Does this mean my turbo is the main problem, but I also have bad valve seals/guides?

 

[sweet97]

I did not check to see what turbo you have but if it's not very old you might just have to remoive the compressor housing and add some silicone to the backing plate. Sometimes this is required with new turbo's. Can't make a shot at the valve cover leak. mark

 

[oldman]

I did a new boost leak test and believe my turbo is bad. When I connected air at turbo inlet it would only take about 10 sec to bleed of from 20psi to zero. When I connected after turbo in LICP it would take about 15 sec to bleed from 20psi to 10psi, and about a full minute to get to zero. I could also hear some leakage from the valve cover. Does this mean my turbo is the main problem, but I also have bad valve seals/guides?

It's normal for air to get past the turbo seal => oil return line => oil pan during a static pressure test, it's not an accurate way to gauge the health of your turbo. If hissing in the VC persisted after you baypassed the turbo, it's wither pcv, valve seals/worn guide or rings. Have you done a dry/wet compression test yet?

 

[dewdew]

It can't be okay to leak that much air through the turbo though can it? It is the original 14b with 120k on it. I do need to do a comp test, although the engine was completely rebuilt about 10k ago. I noticed oil leaking from head gasket (mitsu metal.) How big of a problem could this be. Maybe need just a head retourque. What is tourqe on ARP hardware? I noticed oil on valve stems when i had the manifold off. Would this indicate bad seals/guides or is that controlled lubrication leak that they are supposed to have. BTW, thanks for all your help so far.

 

[oldman]

It can't be okay to leak that much air through the turbo though can it?

If you're able to pressurize the intake to 20psi, you're really not loosing all that much air through the seal. More importantly is shaft play, oil in the licp and whether you're blowing smoke out of the exhaust. Are you?

It is the original 14b with 120k on it. I do need to do a comp test, although the engine was completely rebuilt about 10k ago. I noticed oil leaking from head gasket (mitsu metal.)

Yes, your car is running like shit and head gasket oil leak, I'm surprised you have not done one yet.

How big of a problem could this be. Maybe need just a head retourque.

Was the head and block decked?

I noticed oil on valve stems when i had the manifold off. Would this indicate bad seals/guides or is that controlled lubrication leak that they are supposed to have.

No there should not be oil there at all, did you change the guides as well as seals on your rebuilt?

BTW, thanks for all your help so far.

You're welcome.

I went back and re-read the whole thread, let's re-organize a little.

1. Post back compression test results.

2. Have you double checked your valve timing.

3. Base timing set at 5*BTDC?

4. You last mentioned the fuel pressure is set at 34psi, is that with vacuum line removed?

5. I didn't see a logger, how are you tuning?

6. Result of pressure test is 20psi from the turbo inlet right?

Sorry if some of this is already answered, it was a lot of reading.

 

[dewdew]

1) Compression test dry: 160 160 175 175
wet: 170 170 190 190
I will do another test to double check readings tomorrow

2) How do I check my valve timing?

3) Base timing is set to 5* BTDC

4) 34psi with vaccum line on, about 10in of vacuum at idle (700rpms) I have 264/272 cams.

5) Logs are real short because I am afraid to run it hard too long because of how it is running but between 3000 to 4500 rpms I am getting between 6-10 counts of knock with around 18 deg timing. I will try to get some better logs to post.

6) I did two boost leak tests. The first was at the turbo inlet. It would leak from 20psi to nothing in about 10sec, I could here air coming from what sounded like behind the turbo but could not find a source. I could also hear air coming from the valve cover. The second test was after the turbo in the LICP. It would go from 20psi to 10psi in about 15 sec and take about a full minute to get to zero. This is why I suspected the turbo to be my main problem. I didd still here air from the valve cover, though, so seals/guides must still be a problem.

The turbo has very minimal shaft play and I didn't see any oil in the IC piping. My car does smoke for a few seconds when I start it up and also when I get on it, mainly at full boost. The smoke is pretty white, but I can smell the oil at startup, must be my seals.

The engine was completely rebuilt from the big Washington mitsu guy (marcus herman), but I will tell you the workmanship wasn't great. I thought he would be replacing all the seals/guides as I told him to, but I can't say for sure. I got the car back running like crap ( didn't set timing or try to even rough tune at all, as well as the many oil leaks, missing exhaust mani stud, stripped bolts, put a crappy valve cover back on and many other problems I had to fix when I got the car back) So honestly I cant say if they did get replaced or how the block was prepped and prepared which is very unfortunate.

The rebuild consisted of ross/eagle parts, bs eliminator, cams, springs, retainers, os valves and all the normal stuff.

Sorry I wrote you a damn novel, but hopefully this will help you help me.

 

[Maglin]

Maglin setting the base pressure may help however the MAF-Translator suggestion I believe is reversed. Setting the base for a smaller injector will RICHEN the mixture across the RPM range. Mark

Opps. yeah went the wrong way.. You would say you had larger injectors to lean it out. Hehe. It was late like it is now. Sorry..

Well it definilty sounds like you have some valve seals that are leaking. More than likely your vavle guides are bad and that is your oil burning issue. Sounds like you got jipped on your rebuild. If they had your car then it should have no problems. Was it running when it went into their shop? If so then it should leave running better. I would take it back and tell them to fix it and of course it's free. Your loggs should show you if your MAS is working correctly. Check your IAT's and Baro to make sure those are correct. At idle you should be seeing roughly 30-50 hz of airflow. Your IAT's should be not more than 3* above ambient and baro should be very close to whatever your barometric pressure is at for your area at that time.

It also sounds like your have a compressor cover leak. That happens and isn't to hard to fix. It could cause your issue's if it's bad enough under boost which is what it sounds like.

 

[oldman]

1) Compression test dry: 160 160 175 175
wet: 170 170 190 190
I will do another test to double check readings tomorrow

I don't like the inconsistency especially on a new motor. However I'm not a compression number expert so someone should chip in on this.

2) How do I check my valve timing?

Make sure timing marks are lined up, though 264/272 will give you lower idle, I'm not sure if it would be as low as -10hg. You should double check everything the shop did anyway.

I didd still here air from the valve cover, though, so seals/guides must still be a problem.

That or the rings, since you have confirmed that the exhaust vavle seals are wet, my guess would be valve seal/guide.

The engine was completely rebuilt from the big Washington mitsu guy (marcus herman), but I will tell you the workmanship wasn't great. I thought he would be replacing all the seals/guides as I told him to, but I can't say for sure. I got the car back running like crap ( didn't set timing or try to even rough tune at all, as well as the many oil leaks, missing exhaust mani stud, stripped bolts, put a crappy valve cover back on and many other problems I had to fix when I got the car back) So honestly I cant say if they did get replaced or how the block was prepped and prepared which is very unfortunate.

This is not good. Block and head preperation is very important when it comes to sealing. Have you confronted the shop with these questions? I agree with maglin when he said:

Sounds like you got jipped on your rebuild.

Sorry I wrote you a damn novel, but hopefully this will help you help me

Yes this was a tough one for someone with short term memory problems.

 

[dewdew]

I did another compression test and got some logs

compression test dry: 175 185 190 190
wet: 210 215 215 215

My last log:

RPMS | Knock | Timing | O2 | Airflow | Inj D/C

2750 | 1 | 24* | 0.90V | 478Hz | 18%
3156 | 0 | 24* | 0.88V | 636Hz | 26%
3406 | 14 | 17* | 0.88V | 781HZ | 35%
4281 | 13 | 16* | 0.88V | 1102Hz | 53%
4812 | 13 | 15* | 0.86V | 1310Hz | 65%
5687 | 12 | 17* | 0.84V | 1568Hz | 81%
6125 | 11 | 19* | 0.84V | 1606Hz | 83%
6312 | 11 | 20* | 0.84V | 1593Hz | 83%

In this log I tried turning down the fuel a tad after 4k to get rid of knock, but O2 values seam really low. Earlier I had slightly better O2 readings (0.88V across the board,) but more knock (25 counts) and I would get a rev limiter type occurrence at around 5500 like it was running too rich. When I leaned it out it went away, but O2 readings went way down.

For the record I am running:

5* BTDC
34PSI fuel pressure with vacuum line off via Aeromotive FPR
9in/hg vacuum at idle (~750rpms)
NGK BPR7ES gapped to 0.32", Magnecore 8.5mm wires
MAF-T V1.3 settings: Base- 6 Idle- 0 Mid- F WOT- F
also running S-AFC
Valve timing is good, marks are lined up perfectly

If there is any other info I can get, or any pictures that may help, just let me know. Thanks

 

[sweet97]

The idle at 750 rpm's is a little low. I keep mine around 900 rpm's with 272cams and get 12"of vacuum. I would gap the plugs at 028" also. Fuel pressure should be around 38psi, line off.
I need to refresh myself to your mods but that log looks good, not sure why the knock as .84 volts is not that lean. Mark

 

[sweet97]

Dewdew, how much boost are you running? The base setting for 660cc inj's is AUX on "1" and BASE on "8". I would get the base of the MAFT as described here. Are you grounding the timing wire before setting the base timing?
If you have it on "6" and the AUX on zero then ytou have it set for 490cc inj's! Setting the base timing a couple of degrees less might help spool and your knock issue. Mark

 

[dewdew]

I am currently running only 12psi of boost until I can get the car running a little better. So you are suggesting around 3*BTDC? According to my MAFT manual setting 6 is for 650cc injectors and the AUX nob is only activated at WOT and when the purple wire trigger is activated, and in my case I don't even have it hooked up because I am not running nitrous/alcohol inj/etc. It is V1.3 so maybe the new version settings are different. My plugs look a little white to me, too, and I what O2s should I be looking for because I though you wanted around 0.90V. In your opinion what is the lowest readings I should see?

 

[sweet97]

Maybe the difference between 1.3 and 2.01. But what does your chart say 880's should be set on? Also a .90 is a safe rich setting. .85 is usually considered the low for a 93 octane fuel. .84 is not going to melt the motor. I do not see why you are getting the knock I see in your log wikth those 02's. Yes try a base timing of 2* and be sure to ground the wire behind the battery first and have nothing attached to the diagnostic port. Mark
I am really interested in the base settings for large inj's.

 

[sweet97]

Look at your base set-up table for injector size. What is on the top of the chart? Mine has 1G DSM and below that 2g dsm AND AUX="X" .....They can't possibly have base settings for inj's up to 1000cc's without using the AUIX knob! Mark

 

[dewdew]

V1.3 Base setting table
Dial Setting 0= 450cc 1=500cc 2=525cc 3=525cc 4=550cc 5=600cc 6=650cc 7=700cc 8=750cc 9=820cc A=900cc B=1000cc C=1100cc D=1250cc E=400cc F=425cc

 

[sweet97]

They are different. Your log lookes good but you have too much knock when the 02v's look good but 02's are NOT the best way to tune. I would suggest you go 1 click leaner and log and see what the knock does. Or go 1 richer and see. Try for about 3 counts of knock and you should be OK and make the most power. What octane are you using? mark

 

[steel_3d]

Have you tried leaning it out one or even two clicks on the high knob?
I run like ass too if it's too rich, and my o2's will still read pretty lean, .83-.82 even, and I get pretty serious knock, like 20's. Then I can go leaner, and it cleans up, and the knock actually decreases. Don't be afraid of knock anywhere under 20. I've done full runs with 30 counts of knock and no problems 10 counts is definitely nothing to shit your pants about. If you wait till later in the rev range it might decrease too. Then if it gets really bad after two clicks lean, start going back richer. But from the cutting out it sounds like you're too rich.

 

[sweet97]

Yeah dewdew you need to find out which way the WOT knob will get your knock down to around 3 counts. If it knocks like 25 counts it will pull enough timing to save the motor. Tune by knock, NOT the 02v's. Try it amnd see what happens and retime the car to 2-3* with the wire behind the battery grounded, are you grounding it? Also unplug your logger from the diagnostic port. Mark, till tomorrow!

 

[dewdew]

I just adjusted my MAF-T 5% leaner like Steel 3d said and had some interesting results my knock went down, and O2s went up. Here is my log:

RPMs | Knock | Timing | O2
2375 | 0 | 26* | 0.92V
2906 | 0 | 25* | 0.92V
3375 | 0 | 23* | 0.90V
3968 | 11 | 18* | 0.90V
4562 | 10 | 18* | 0.88V
5062 | 9 | 18* | 0.88V
5593 | 8 | 20* | 0.88V
6000 | 8 | 22* | 0.86V
6375 | 7 | 22* | 0.86V
6687 | 6 | 20* | 0.86V

How could this happen by going leaner? Also, i figured I would try to go 2% leaner on my AFC to see if it got better, but it got worse showing up to 23 counts of knock with the same O2 readings. My car is starting to run a lot better thanks to you guys.

By the way after the logs I turned my timing down to 3*BTDC and will log some tomorrow. I will also recheck my spark plug gap. And I do know to ground out the plug behing the battery and unplug my logger. I will let you know tommorow.

 

[dewdew]

I forgot to mention I am running awesome west coast 91 octane and I will try one click leaner tomorrow as well.

 

[steel_3d]

Try two clicks leaner if that doesn't help Sometimes we're way far rich when we think we're in the right ballpark.

I just dynoed on saturday with my t04b and 91 octane and I was running like shit. I was rich, 10:1, 10.5:1 at best, but I couldn't get my knock down consistently, and when I did I got shit power. I was misfiring really bad too which showed up on the wideband. You couldn't really feel it as bucking, but you saw the spikes on the wideband. On the street you can feel it as a dip in power but not full bucking. So it's definitely time to gap the plugs tighter than stock. Also, misfires let oxygen by, showing leaner a/f. Since your o2 doesn't have any decent resolution to show spikes I guess it just shows leaner when you're misfiring.

Really bad misfires, like bucking, do show up as lean on the stock o2 as well. Basically the stock o2 is next to useless. I'm really wishing for a wideband but I can't justify the cost. Once I get my car running right, ie no intake and exhaust leaks, which I know I have, and proerly gapped plugs. it should be possible to get a decent tune by knock. I've had much higher airflow numbers and almost no knock a few weeks ago, it's just insconsistent when your car's in shitty shape.

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

Try it amnd see what happens and retime the car to 2-3* with the wire behind the battery grounded, are you grounding it?

Retiming the engine to 2-3* would be advancing timing wouldn't it? I'm having difficulty with this because my timing cover is fubared and I can barely see the markings. Anyone got a pic (actual photo) of the timing marks that I can reference (1g)?

Also unplug your logger from the diagnostic port. Mark, till tomorrow!

So you have to completely unplug the wires from the diagnostic port in order to set timing correctly? You can't just unplug the Palm logger?

 

[dewdew]

Last Log:

RPM | Knock | Timing | O2
2093 | 0 | 26 | 0.86
2250 | 0 | 27 | 0.88
2562 | 0 | 27 | 0.84
2750 | 4 | 27 | 0.86
3000 | 3 | 27 | 0.86
3250 | 14 | 21 | 0.84
3562 | 13 | 20 | 0.86
3718 | 13 | 20 | 0.86
4062 | 12 | 20 | 0.84
4312 | 12 | 21 | 0.86
4593 | 12 | 20 | 0.86
4718 | 11 | 20 | 0.86
5062 | 11 | 20 | 0.86
5281 | 11 | 21 | 0.86
5468 | 10 | 22 | 0.86
5781 | 10 | 22 | 0.86
6000 | 11 | 24 | 0.86
6250 | 10 | 23 | 0.86
6593 | 10 | 22 | 0.86
6718 | 9 | 20 | 0.86
7031 | 9 | 18 | 0.86
7125 | 9 | 18 | 0.86

It is getting better, but I got to the point where neither adding or removing fuel caused a negative effect. Looking at all of my logs I have noticed knock always jumps in around 3500rpms. I also have noticed that I get low rpm, high load knock (phantom knock?) and wonder if this could be causing my problems with knock. Could the pk start a chain reaction causing the knock for the remainder of the pull? Right now I am -15% across the board on my MAF-T and -2% on my S-AFC. I did regap my plugs to 0.028" and my timing is at 3*BTDC.

 

[steel_3d]

Try adding fuel with the maft in the low rpm range where the knock starts. I assume you're tuning in rpm mode. The wideband on the dyno showed really lean in that range for me too, and that's where my knock starts too. Especially on the highway under high load. As soon as the turbo starts spooling, it's too lean and starts to knock, then the knock decreses slowly like yours. You might also have to increase your mid trim if you're too lean before your airflow even hits 500hz, which I am getting. I haven't fixed my issue yet, so I'm just throwing out ideas.