F5M33 FWD GST tranny

[roadtrip_69]

Doing a rebuild, after my 1st gear went out. Found out by the autopsy that the intermediate bearing was shot.

The cause of that being there's NO spacer under the race. And it's clear the bearing has been grounding into the case it's been so bad. The transmission has been rebuilt twice over the 16 years I've had it. Just synchros last time but apparently the local shop didn't know what they are doing. And omitted the spacer all together.
Does anyone know what the "standard" sized spacer is? Also what are people using as spacers as I hear none of them are available from Mitsubishi any longer.

Should the races be basically flush with the case?
Cause both input and intermediate are well below while the output and diff are pretty

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Also I already have synchros and all bearings but one input bearing that isn't carried any longer. Also bought a new 1/2 hub/sleeve and fork. So I have all the major parts just need the obscure spacers...

 

[luv2rallye]

You use correct thickness shims under the races to adjust for proper bearing preloads - not any standard thickness spacer which goes on all trannys (although Mitsu does call these shims a spacer). Every bearing must have its own correct preload (listed in the manual) where you use a shim to get (and the shim is different on every tranny to get this). There is a very time consuming method spelled out in the Mitsu shop manual on how to do this involving squeezing solder where a shim would go when the clam shells are assembled, and then re-opening it up and measuring the thickness of the squeezed solder. It is SO time consuming to do, that I have NEVER seen ANY tranny shop actually do it - they just lie and claim they adjusted the preloads when they actually haven't. I've been to many name brand tranny shops and have proof of this. So I always do it myself and then end up with my tranny shifting like butter. Contact Twick69 on here (tranny rebuilder pro) for these shims (but you'll have to do the measurement procedure to tell him which ones you want - each has its own number id on it) - or send your tranny to him for rebuilding/shimming.

 

[roadtrip_69]

You use correct thickness shims under the races to adjust for proper bearing preloads - not any standard thickness spacer which goes on all trannys (although Mitsu does call these shims a spacer). Every bearing must have its own correct preload (listed in the manual) where you use a shim to get (and the shim is different on every tranny to get this). There is a very time consuming method spelled out in the Mitsu shop manual on how to do this involving squeezing solder where a shim would go when the clam shells are assembled, and then re-opening it up and measuring the thickness of the squeezed solder. It is SO time consuming to do, that I have NEVER seen ANY tranny shop actually do it - they just lie and claim they adjusted the preloads when they actually haven't. I've been to many name brand tranny shops and have proof of this. So I always do it myself and then end up with my tranny shifting like butter. Contact Twick69 on here (tranny rebuilder pro) for these shims (but you'll have to do the measurement procedure to tell him which ones you want - each has its own number id on it) - or send your tranny to him for rebuilding/shimming.

It occurs to me after studying the manual a bit more that the "shims" aka "spacers are actually on the top case side of things and NOT on the bell housing side? So the fact there is no space/shim I guess is normal. Just don't understand how that bearing wore out so badly that it starting grinding into the case itself if thats not the side thats shim/spaced. But it definitely decreased the travel of the 1/2 hub/sleeve so it wasn't fully engaging unto 1st gear.

I was looking at a you tube video i found of an awd tranny being rebuilt but they really glossed over the solder part of things. And the drawings in the manual are so lacking clarity/detail on the process.

Without getting into micrometer measurements, would it be safe to say though that when both main cases are torqued together there should be NO obvious up and down play in the intermediate shaft, like if you pull up on the spline, it shouldn't move? Cause mine was definitely sliding back and forth a good 1/8 of an inch. I would assume part of that was the chewed up bearing on the bell housing side.

Going to take the race out of the top side case today after work and see if there is already some kind of spacer/shim on that side. I have a few more days before the synchro's and bearings come in to try to figure things out.

I had the tranny rebuilt the first time at Jacks, probably 10 years ago. But when I got it back it wouldn't shift into 5th gear. Turned out they forgot to tighten/torque the 36 mm nut. Was not happy about that.... Was easy enough to fix though. Then the last time was at aamco and they took like 2 months to get it back to me, and it was never very smooth, so decided if I can rebuild a motor I should be able to overhaul a transmission too.

Appreciate the response though, once I do something once I'm good to go, just never took a transmission apart to this extent and put it all the way back together. The preloads/tolerances part is throwing me off a bit.

 

[pauleyman]

I've never see a bearing get that bad to cut into the case. Makes me wonder what aamco did. Has this trans been running awhile?
If you have new bearings and no shims installed you can definitely just grab the shafts and tell there is axial play. It's not 1/8". but it's obvious. I agree with you if you van do a motor you can easily do this. Search and post questions as they arise. It's meticulous but not a terribly difficult process.

 

[luv2rallye]

I've proven that local shops never adjust bearing preloads (due to the time involved, although they will lie to you saying that they did or claim it didn't need it) and don't even do, or even know how to do, manuals anymore (they farm them out). Only mail in tranny shops like Jacks and TMZPerformance will correctly do that.

Your FWD intermediate shaft should have NO play at all (let alone 1/8"). It's spec'd at 0.0020-0.0040" PRELOAD. Since FWD tranny's have tapered bearings they use preload (AWD that have ball bearings use endplay). Use 0.062" rosin core solder for measurement (others will expand giving false readings. Can use copper RTV to temporarily hold loose races and solder pieces in place (so they don't fall out) when reassembling clam shell haves for measurement. I did 3 measurements and averaged them out.

Here's some links that have good info (and you can read all of my posts in many of them for tips):
- https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/gearbox-shimming-expert-needed.432456/#post-152943858
- https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/2...d-second-gear-problems.406668/#post-152643586
- https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/f5m33-rebuild-dsm-fwd-transmission.317077/#post152263543
- https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/5th-gear-shift-inside-tranny.480233/#post-153435439
- Complete rebuild (AWD tranny but still useful): https://web.archive.org/web/20100627174759/http://www.twingles.com/ideck/rebuild3/dretranny.htm

 

[roadtrip_69]

I've never see a bearing get that bad to cut into the case. Makes me wonder what aamco did. Has this trans been running awhile?
If you have new bearings and no shims installed you can definitely just grab the shafts and tell there is axial play. It's not 1/8". but it's obvious. I agree with you if you van do a motor you can easily do this. Search and post questions as they arise. It's meticulous but not a terribly difficult process.

Well I looked up the last time I bought a rebuild kit, bearings and synchros and it was September 2018. In that time its probably had 60K miles or so. Whole car has 311000, had 270000 when I built out the new engine, and the transmission was a couple years before that. So 50-60k probably.

I did take the races out today and found 2 spacers/shims in each the input and intermediate locations. one was shimmed to about 1.20 mm and the other 1.6 mm
Ordered some solder , couldn't find 1.6 as suggested in the manual, but found 1.5 so should be good enough for one side. I think i came across 2.0mm so I'll grab that too.

Took apart the Input shaft today and found that aamco never even put back the clip ring at the 4th gear end. But to be fair it didn't look like the bearing had moved at all it was easily below where the clip should be. Which not even sure why clips are there when the bearings are pressed on, but I'm sure its more for worst case/safety scenarios than "likely" scenarios.

Also discovered my third gear.. is different looking than what the manual has. And it has a 3 piece synchro setup, like 1st and 2nd gear do. While 4th and 5th only have the single ring for their synchro rings.

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[luv2rallye]

Just make sure you don't use a solid core solder (like silver solder) as it expands after it's crushed giving a false measurement (you'll often get different measurements each time).

Not to be too obvious but you replace all existing shims with the solder for the measurement procedure (new solder for each of the 2-3 times you do it - but do all bearings at same time). After all this do the calculation using the required presets to determine what shims are needed. Note you can stack multiple shims together to get the required thickness.

Now is also a good time to file the rounded teeth (into pointed teeth) of the reverse idler gear so it will engage better (when rounded it's hard to get into reverse).

Make sure the forks/sleeves aren't worn where they ride on each other (3-4 fork/sleeve is 0.385"/0.390" new and 1-2 fork/sleeve is 0.263"/0.270 new).

Use new 36mm nuts.

Check for excessive wear on the end of the interlock plate bolt (https://www.dsmtuners.com/attachments/case-engine-side-jpg.98976/) (MD717876) which moves inside the interlock plate when shifting.

Although outside the tranny check for wear of the Select Lever Shoe (https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/97-gs-t-fifth-gear-grinding-help.376341/#post-152266167) to reduce sloppy shifting.

 

[roadtrip_69]

Just make sure you don't use a solid core solder (like silver solder) as it expands after it's crushed giving a false measurement (you'll often get different measurements each time).

Not to be too obvious but you replace all existing shims with the solder for the measurement procedure (new solder for each of the 2-3 times you do it - but do all bearings at same time). After all this do the calculation using the required presets to determine what shims are needed. Note you can stack multiple shims together to get the required thickness.

Now is also a good time to file the rounded teeth (into pointed teeth) of the reverse idler gear so it will engage better (when rounded it's hard to get into reverse).

Make sure the forks/sleeves aren't worn where they ride on each other (3-4 fork/sleeve is 0.385"/0.390" new and 1-2 fork/sleeve is 0.263"/0.270 new).

Use new 36mm nuts.

Check for excessive wear on the end of the interlock plate bolt (https://www.dsmtuners.com/attachments/case-engine-side-jpg.98976/) (MD717876) which moves inside the interlock plate when shifting.

Although outside the tranny check for wear of the Select Lever Shoe (https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/97-gs-t-fifth-gear-grinding-help.376341/#post-152266167) to reduce sloppy shifting.

Thanks for the suggestions, actually part of what lead to this issue was the Select Lever Shoe, it was half broken off, to the point the shift lever itself ground down to 50 percent of its size. Put a groove into the main shift level assembly as well. So its been wearing things out internally for a while I would guess. So it wasn't "capable" of fully engaging 1st gear easily, if at all?

I already ordered and replaced that though, welded the select level back to full size, sanded and filed it to get back to its round shape.

Also already ordered new nuts, got those yesterday in fact. I have a new 1/2 fork on order from over seas but the existing fork seems fine, no wiggle really inside of the sleeve. (which I did get new before I knew the bearing was shot or the select level shoe was broken). Contemplating rather to wait for the fork or use the existing on when reassembling. I also have a poppet ball/spring cap coming from over seas as well. But at least I can mount the transmission without installing that (it was stripped out completely, I had to helicoil the transmission side). I'll mic out the existing and see how close it is to the specs you presented above.

Interesting suggestion about the reverse idler gear, its always been really hard to get into reverse, well harder than the fwd gears at least. Sometimes required giving it a little power when trying to get into the gear before it fell into it.

I found in the forum someone uploaded the ASE certification version of working on the AWD and FWD transmissions which uses actual pictures instead of diagrams, although its black and white and still more grainy than optimum. But it does include some critical info on the solder part of things. that explains the difference between tapered and ball bearings, and the shimming process based on which you are dealing with. For tapered bearings, you take the size of the solder after smashing, and you go up one size from that, while on the other you do a little less than the measured solder. Pre-Load vs End-Play

Again what concerns me the most is FINDING the shims that may be needed. Such a simple and inexpensive part, you'd think they'd be the last thing discontinued as they are low cost. Also not having the snap rings any longer as well knowing that they almost always need to be replaced ANYTIME you do any repair on the transmissions.. boggles the mind. But I digress...just stressful.

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[luv2rallye]

Interesting suggestion about the reverse idler gear, its always been really hard to get into reverse, well harder than the fwd gears at least. Sometimes required giving it a little power when trying to get into the gear before it fell into it.

Yes, filing those rounded teeth into points to engage the other gear (so teeth tips aren't smashing directly into each other so much preventing engagement) will really help. When it won't go into reverse, you can also let the clutch up until it just barely engages and while holding it there, it will slip into reverse easier.

Again what concerns me the most is FINDING the shims that may be needed. Such a simple and inexpensive part, you'd think they'd be the last thing discontinued as they are low cost. Also not having the snap rings any longer as well knowing that they almost always need to be replaced ANYTIME you do any repair on the transmissions.. boggles the mind. But I digress...just stressful.

Contact Twicks69 (tranny rebuilder). He bought up all the stock years ago but may sell just the few you need (he did for me years ago when I did my tranny).

Also make sure the shifter cables cases are securely clamped down on the tranny or you will have shifting problems.

 

[roadtrip_69]

Yes, filing those rounded teeth into points to engage the other gear (so teeth tips aren't smashing directly into each other so much preventing engagement) will really help. When it won't go into reverse, you can also let the clutch up until it just barely engages and while holding it there, it will slip into reverse easier.



Contact Twicks69 (tranny rebuilder). He bought up all the stock years ago but may sell just the few you need (he did for me years ago when I did my tranny).


Also make sure the shifter cables cases are securely clamped down on the tranny or you will have shifting problems.

Hey you wouldnt happen to know what vehicle/transmission came with a 3 piece synchro for 1st gear would you? My kit I just received only came with the 3 piece synchro for 2nd gear. I also have 3 piece 1st and 3 piece 3rd.

And non of the diagrams I seem to have show the awd or fwd turbo or non. With those gears? So I would venture to guess they are from an evo III? I know when i originally had the tranny done at jacks, i purchased upgrades I just cant remember which ones. But now I need these synchros before I can put it all back together again.

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[luv2rallye]

Ask Twick69.

 

[pauleyman]

That first gear is custom. Jack's did those oval slots for first.