Experience on full slicks - AWD

[Phil1320]

Just curious to hear thoughts on full slicks. I've only run a used set of Kumho's on my Evo and they worked pretty well. Fairly soon I'll be looking for tires for my TD 17 x 9s. I'm sure there's threads about this but I'd like to hear from guys that have run recently, like in 2012. What I'm looking for is manufacturer and size info and experience relative to that. Also, this will be for roadcourse track days, not autocross nor time attack. Thanks,

Phil

 

[Phil1320]

Noone? Absolutely noone actively runs a race slick in a roadcourse environment?

Jeez.

 

[viperlp01]

I am apart of a BMW club that is a road course/autocross based club. Michinana chapter actually. One of my buddies is a pretty serious racer in the spec E36 M3 class. He only runs Hoosiers for auto cross or road course. He has a set of A6's that are designed to heat up fast and work well for autocross and a set of R6's that are designed for the road course and he seems to love those.

 

[bradselph]

i have a set of 245 hoosier r6s that i ran on the street for a few months, took a little bit of hard driving to get them warm but after that i couldn't break them loose unless i tried really hard but even then they stayed glued.

 

[jtmcinder]

For a driver who is new to open tracks, I would suggest Hankook Ventus Z214 in the medium C51 compound. Not that much less grippy and much, much cheaper than Hoosier R6s, which is important because you're going to ruin your first set quite quickly.

FYI: the C51 is also the ultimate in lazy autocross tires. Drive to and from the event. Not as fast as the C71 or A6s or V710s, but not swapping tires at the end of the day ... priceless. I'm home and in the shower before the guy who kicked my butt has his streets back on. tee hee

 

[Phil1320]

I am apart of a BMW club that is a road course/autocross based club. Michinana chapter actually. One of my buddies is a pretty serious racer in the spec E36 M3 class. He only runs Hoosiers for auto cross or road course. He has a set of A6's that are designed to heat up fast and work well for autocross and a set of R6's that are designed for the road course and he seems to love those.

Ok, cool, thanks. I know some people that run the Hoosiers, however, I haven't talked to them in several years. R6 seems to be a benchmark tire.

i have a set of 245 hoosier r6s that i ran on the street for a few months, took a little bit of hard driving to get them warm but after that i couldn't break them loose unless i tried really hard but even then they stayed glued.

Thanks for the reply, yeah, on the street it'd be pretty tough to able to drive aggressively enough to put proper heat to the tire. I guess I should mention that my car is strictly a track only car.

For a driver who is new to open tracks, I would suggest Hankook Ventus Z214 in the medium C51 compound. Not that much less grippy and much, much cheaper than Hoosier R6s, which is important because you're going to ruin your first set quite quickly.

FYI: the C51 is also the ultimate in lazy autocross tires. Drive to and from the event. Not as fast as the C71 or A6s or V710s, but not swapping tires at the end of the day ... priceless. I'm home and in the shower before the guy who kicked my butt has his streets back on. tee hee

Nice....ok....honestly....I'd like to run the Hankooks or the Kumho's. Now that I think about it, the Kumhos I ran on my Evo were V710, and at Pocono North Course they were exceptional.

Thanks for the input. Also, gotta think about replacement costs tire vs. tire...

 

[arrowhead]

To me it is hard to understand why any one that is going to race would use anything else but a race tire unless prohibited by rules, there is a night and day difference between a race tire and the best street tire, after all money spent on the car and equipment, skimping on tires does not cut it.

Do not have any experience in autoX, or solo or time attack but for road racing you have to go with a proper race tire at this time Goodyear and Hoosier are about the only option.

Goodyear to me are still the best, but for the price in a race tire Hoosier cant be beat and their DOT "approved" tire is a race tire with maybe 5 or 6 lines around.

Compounds is what makes the difference, You would not use the same tires at Sebring that you would use for a sprint 30 minute race.

 

[jtmcinder]

Well, I can give one reason for starting on streets: you're still learning. If you jump to Rs too soon - and this applies to both autocross and open track - you might pick up some bad habits that you'll never get rid of later. Plus, you'll be going faster, making it harder to focus on line, which you really need to get down as early as possible.

To a complete beginner, I'd actually suggest Hankook R-S3s ... for everything: autocross, open track, and street. They are also relatively cheap and have nice, stiff sidewalls for a street tire. And, again, no changing tires. Do at least a few days/events on these. Then, if you enjoyed yourself and want to stick with it (as it were), move to Z214s. Finish the year on those. Then assess where you are,

There was this guy who showed up at a central PA autocross with Hoosier A6s on Enkeis for his very first autocross. That was nuts. What if he decided that all day for 5 minutes of seat time wasn't his cup of tea? (In fact, he did fine and came back for every subsequent event, but that kind of ruins my story, so I'll leave it out.) (Oops.) (Damned unfreezing process!)

 

[viperlp01]

Exactly the same advice was given to beginners. Learn how to drive first, then learn how to go faster.

 

[Phil1320]

Ok, well, I did my first track day in my Talon back in 1996. In more recent years, I've been to track days in Lancer Evolution, Forester XT(full coilovers), & Porsche Cayman. So, I've got some decent experience but by no means an expert.

I will most likely just cut to the chase and do the Hoosiers for my AWD. I have a FWD NA car that is currently on Toyo R888 with a stack of Michelin Pilot Sport Cups for replacements. I have not been to the track in that car yet.

 

[jtmcinder]

We probably should have figured this out based on your avatar. Sorry about the under-estimation, but the advice still stands for others. Good luck and have fun.

 

[My1GLaser]

jtmcinder, taking your advice as a beginner and running R-S3s for auto-x and street driving, could someone expect them to do well in the 1/4mile also?

 

[arrowhead]

We probably should have figured this out based on your avatar. Sorry about the under-estimation, but the advice still stands for others. Good luck and have fun.

Well he is not a beginner and his question was about full slicks, not street tires and as far as bad habits you will probably get more on the street tires, and then have to relearn all over again when you have the pleasure of a race tire under you.

I will strongly disagree even from a safety standpoint, he is not talking autox,

Tires are the most important part of your suspension as everything starts there,
IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO OPEN TRACK RACING, go with a race tire not a street tire, it is a world of difference and they are also safer.

The same goes for using a race tire on the street, they are unsafe and even the DOT approved ones are a hazard on the street and a waste of money.
Now someone is trying to use the same tire for the street ,autox and 1/4 mile, come on, want to use them in the snow also.

 

[My1GLaser]

I don't see snow here. I was hoping the tire might fit the bill for all 3. The Yokohoma S Drives work fine for auto-x, street driving and drag racing. I guess I need DOT slicks for the 1/4 and R comps for autoX. I will just stick with street tires then...I know a tire guy, but I don't have that kind of money laying around!

 

[jtmcinder]

Wait for what? And why did you post twice in a row?

As to R-S3s for drag ... oh, my no. Snow tires would be better. Sidewall is way too stiff.

 

[Phil1320]

We probably should have figured this out based on your avatar. Sorry about the under-estimation, but the advice still stands for others. Good luck and have fun.

Oh, no biggie at all. I'm game to hear any and all recommendations and thoughts. I don't have any recent trips to the roadcourse on race tires, last in 2007, and I know a few new tires have come around since then.

Well he is not a beginner and his question was about full slicks, not street tires and as far as bad habits you will probably get more on the street tires, and then have to relearn all over again when you have the pleasure of a race tire under you.

I will strongly disagree even from a safety standpoint, he is not talking autox,

Tires are the most important part of your suspension as everything starts there,
IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO OPEN TRACK RACING, go with a race tire not a street tire, it is a world of difference and they are also safer.

The same goes for using a race tire on the street, they are unsafe and even the DOT approved ones are a hazard on the street and a waste of money.
Now someone is trying to use the same tire for the street ,autox and 1/4 mile, come on, want to use them in the snow also.

Most definitely...

 

[cait sith]

Do you mean Slick-slick (EG Michelin/Dunlop/Goodyear/etc) or DOT Slick (Hoosier DOT/Advan A048s/that ilk)? There's a big difference.

Edit: And what group are you running with? COM?

 

[Phil1320]

Full slick...and I was forgetting Hoosiers are DOT, no Advans etc.

I last ran with PDA. I'm planning to hit Lime Rock with EMRA in April....

Do you mean Slick-slick (EG Michelin/Dunlop/Goodyear/etc) or DOT Slick (Hoosier DOT/Advan A048s/that ilk)? There's a big difference.

Edit: And what group are you running with? COM?

What is your recommendation?

 

[theamsoilguy]

I race a awd Talon in Chump car, I put on some r-compounds for a track day and the car was better. I only have camber bolts, but the car has nowhere near enough camber and the outside fronts wear quickly. The car was also made better with a upgraded rear sway. I would say a lot has to do with your suspension. I also switch from a street tire to r-compounds in another car and has all sorts of bushing problems ( tore them up fast )

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

I bought a set of scrubs from a Grand Am race team, 245/45-17 (a little tall on the sidewall but that's the closest I could find), the Continental Grand Am race slick. Apparently it's a Hoosier R6 compound but full slick, no circumferential grooves and not DOT legal.

I ran them both in my race car and my daily GSX (when my race car was down and I had already signed up for the day). I have a feeling they were already pretty close to heat cycled out as my cornering G wasn't much higher than the Toyo R888 I had before, which was surprising.

They're a little less forgiving, they're greasy when cold, and they are picky on tire pressure. I had to run them WAY lower than I'm used to. I normally shoot for 35-37 hot on most street/mild R-comps but these things wanted to be about 28-30 hot. Any more than that and they got super greasy like they were overheating. Kicked up all kinds of tire marbles on the sides of my car but they were fun and I'm pretty happy with them, for $80 for the whole set! I've done 3 full track weekends (both days each time) and they still have decent life on them...one sign they're quite past their service life. I swear, they seem to pick up rubber faster than they leave it behind

I'll post up the in-car once it's done uploading to YouTube if you're interested.


Beau

 

[arrowhead]

Hoosier is very helpful with information, whether to recommend a compound, alignment or tire pressure.

I have also found that going with a little less tire pres. has helped, but there are so many variables involved, like car weight , track surface, ambient temperature, and also how cure is the track from previous use that it is impossible that is why you have to read the tires and take temp.

Give them a call, you will be glad you did.

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

Hoosier is very helpful with information, whether to recommend a compound, alignment or tire pressure.

I have also found that going with a little less tire pres. has helped, but there are so many variables involved, like car weight , track surface, ambient temperature, and also how cure is the track from previous use that it is impossible that is why you have to read the tires and take temp.

Give them a call, you will be glad you did.

Since the Contis are just a rebranded Hoosier R6, I used Hoosier's technical tire pressure guide that is very detailed and precise on its tire pressure recommendation based on vehicle weight and a number of other things. Interestingly enough, the numbers were WAY off, way too high. I wasn't having luck and showed it to one of the guys in NASA who's been racing on these tires for many years and he laughed and said those numbers are probably 10 psi off. I told him they came straight from Hoosier and he said, "well, do what you want but I know what works." I dropped the pressure almost 10 psi down and it was a night and day difference. I picked up almost 0.15g through the flat corners, go figure.

Beau

 

[Phil1320]

Haven't been on the thread here in a bit. In the interim I have made two track visits (Lime Rock Park, CT)this year with my NA Archer Talon. Both visits were on the 5+ year old Toyo R888s I spoke of before. I was actually pretty impressed and was able to pull lap times that I was impressed by. I figured since I'd never driven the car before, I'd make a couple track visits to make sure there weren't any problems, and to get used to, and learn how to drive the NA powerplant as I'm used to having turbo power.

Now that I've done that, it's time to start thinking about replacing them. I also have another Archer Talon FWD Turbo. It currently has 7+ year old original Falken Azenis which seem to be pretty hard. Since I have them, I thought I'd toss the Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on that and try them out.

So, with these two cars, keep in mind they were set up to run on Goodyear DOT street VR or ZR radials back in the day. Not to say they wouldn't work very well on slicks. But, the wheels are 16 x 7 which I don't plan to change as I'm wanting to run the cars like they ran back in 1990-1991. So I'm only using tires that come in 205/50/16, which limits choices.

I have a set of 16 x 7.5 Kosei K1s that have barely sed Toyo RA1s on them also. I've never run on those tires. I'm guessing the design is pretty dated, but, I'd imagine they still to alright.

Thoughts? Know who makes full slicks in 205?

 

[arrowhead]

Well I know that it is hard to resist using old tires, and in your particular case to try to use the car in as "it was form".

I think you may be putting the car and yourself at risk, tires with that many years, even if they were storage properly, number one they are not going to behave in a manner which you would be able to learn much, also they may have internal cracks which may only show up at the worse time.

You will end up fighting the tires instead of driving the car, I have done this, only to have to come in with a fender blown off because a tire came apart, and I consider that minor.

Have you consider that those times that you were impressed with may be the result of you being a better driver or a smarter driver, I am positive they are not the result of the 5 yr old tire.

Resist the urge to use them and you will be better off.

Fresh tires are your best friend.

 

[Phil1320]

I see where you're coming from of course. However, the car was gone through 100% & of course passed tech inspection. I wanted to make sure that the car was going to be enjoyable to drive before I changed tires. Now that I've established that, it's time for tires and alignment.

Anything can happen, however the suggestion that I was risking anything is a bit extreme. The tires are merely old and 50% worn, but not in a state of neglect or near coming apart. And, for sure old tires aren't helping me be as quick as I could be, but, these were shakedown track days and I wasn't pushing super hard. The car had not seen the track in at least 3 years so I was being very cautious the first day. At this course terminal speed is only about 95 mph in this car so far...

So, any suggestions on tires? Next time out I'll be on the new RA1s

And, I'll use the Michelins on the other car to start. I'd like to run a Hankook or Hoosier I think....