AWD Drift?!

[mattmullin]

heres what i've been up to, antilag throttle kicker is working and i depowered the brakes as well.

Once the car's running, there will be videos! o yes!

 

[Novec64]

Once the car's running, there will be videos! o yes!

A DSM driven as aggressively as those Audis would stir up all kinds of shit! WTF

Driftworks link

 

[jtmcinder]

There a few misstatements in this thread that haven't been correct yet.

First, the reason why you can keep the center VC even if you run a 36/65 center is because the Cusco 35/65 center is a planetary-type differential. It splits the torque unevenly while still turning both outputs at the same speed, at least until tire-slip.

Second, I've seen a few places where people have said that a locked center has a 50/50 split. This is not correct; at least, it's incorrect to imply that a locked center is always a 50/50 torque-splitter. A truly locked center can have any split from 0/100 to 100/0 and the current split varies from moment to moment, depending on tire-slip. If your fronts are in the air (or the front axles are missing), then as long as your locked center holds up (i.e., it stays locked) and nothing else breaks, it's now 0/100. Conversely, if the prop-shaft breaks, for example, but the center stays locked and nothing else breaks, it's now 100/0. Remember: fixed, mechanical, torque-split is a property of differentials, and something that is locked so that both outputs must turn at the same speed is not a differential.

The only other issue that came up that needs some explaining is the uneven torque-split of the car on the separate front/rear dyno. This is only partly due to the extra drive-train loss to the rear. It is also due to the slightly different total ratios from the center to the front vs from the center to the rear. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the ratio of the transfer case times the ratio of the rear is not the same as the ratio for the front. They are not wildly different, but they are not the same, so you get a bit of an uneven split (of torque and power) from this. I believe that this is done on purpose to keep the center spider rotating slowly when driving straight ahead.

 

[RipperXX]

If you dont mind taking the time to explaine more of this rally anti lag system to us. I know it's awesome and all, and I have seen it in action on cars in rally vids pulling out of corners etc. But I don't fully understand how it works compaired to our drag setups. Or where to source the parts. Sooo if you don't mind please enlighten some of us.

 

[phizzalot]

Nice video of those Audi's!!!!
Does anyone know what type of drivetrain split those audi's have?

 

[mattmullin]

rally style anti lag works by retarding the timing and dumping air and fuel into the exh mani. Burns in the manifold and makes the turbo spool. Requires an ecu capable of controlling a valve or throttle kicker when certain parameters are met. I.E. speed, tps, temps... I've seen vacume throttle kickers controlled by a boost control solenoid. but i haven't seen an electronic setup like the one i made.. hopefully it works! Matt at haltech tells me what i've come up with should do the trick for the kind of boost I'm looking for on idle, Hopefully about 10psi and a mean bang/flame!!! I have been working on the car some more, the mr2 electric steering pump setup is almost done and i have been making the enclosure for the radiator set up, More pics at the end of the week!

 

[theslab]

QDH8B - Quaife Engineering

 

[Alex7747]

I am loving this thread!! I want a 1g drifter now!

 

[Novec64]

Came across some more stuff today. This video is really short, but It's bad ass.

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I don't consider this drifting, but I thought this video would be a relevant to the thread just in case anyone brought up FWD bullshit. Don't get me wrong it looks fun and it's impressive driving, but it's ass dragging not drifting.

<iframe width="420" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JQMQkMvRG3I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[jtmcinder]

Came across some more stuff today. This video is really short, but It's bad ass.

Over his career, Gianluigi Galli had about a 50% chance of not crashing out at any given WRC event. He was entertaining, yes, but, as a person for Mitsu fans look up to, he wasn't another Tommi Makinen.

Thanks for the vids.

 

[Novec64]

Over his career, Gianluigi Galli had about a 50% chance of not crashing out at any given WRC event. He was entertaining, yes, but, as a person for Mitsu fans look up to, he wasn't another Tommi Makinen.

Thanks for the vids.

Haha, nice.

 

[KHRacing]

Hi there.

I prefer an RWD EVO

Videos: Garaget | Team Sitoo Driftingträning 11/10-08 @ STURUP

100mph drifting: Garaget | Team Sitoo Driftingträning 11/10-08 @ STURUP

1-2-3 in 3 seconds: Garaget | Driftingträning med Hässleholms MK 5/4

 

[Lofty]

Best first post ever.

 

[phizzalot]

Hello KHracing Welcome To DSMtuners. I see you made it ver here from the other forum. Awesome photo's!!! Iam sure the response wil be a bit different here.

 

[jtmcinder]

If this thread is going to become active again, I beg those of you who don't quite get the concept of torque split to read http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/410949-awd-dsm-torque-split-distribution.html before contributing. Thanks.

 

[phizzalot]

jtmcinder.. I grasp the way DSM awd transmission's are setup and when welding the center differential / Viscous coupling can only grant the rear wheels 50% of the horsepower the engine is making.

However KHracing has done this exact process and has demonstrated that the transmission/tc/rear diff can hold up to the abuse.
.
I believe that he has the drifting technique down however may not be very competitive when compared to the Regular 240sx/ae86 drifters. Although with more practice and modification's, "who knows"

 

[jtmcinder]

jtmcinder.. I grasp the way DSM awd transmission's are setup and when welding the center differential / Viscous coupling can only grant the rear wheels 50% of the horsepower the engine is making.

If you think that a welded center can only send 50% of the "power" to the rear, then, to be blunt, you grasp nothing (but straws).

As explained in the post linked to above, if your center is locked, then the moment-to-moment torque distribution can be anything from 100/0 to 0/100. (When you use terms like "grant" I can only assume that you are talking about how much power is being used by that end of the car, so you're talking torque distribution.)

And note that a welded center does not have a torque split, since it isn't a differential; torque split is a term that only applies to diffs.

 

[jtmcinder]

Best first post ever.

Agreed 100%.

But you spelled "evah" wrong.

 

[phizzalot]

If you think that a welded center can only send 50% of the "power" to the rear, then, to be blunt, you grasp nothing (but straws).

As explained in the post linked to above, if your center is locked, then the moment-to-moment torque distribution can be anything from 100/0 to 0/100. (When you use terms like "grant" I can only assume that you are talking about how much power is being used by that end of the car, so you're talking torque distribution.)

And note that a welded center does not have a torque split, since it isn't a differential; torque split is a term that only applies to diffs.

Ok, regardless of the 100-0, 0-100 torque distribution, KHracing is still capable of starting and maintaing a drift.

Your initial request to read and understand your post does inform people of torque distribution however, I may have taken the description the incorrect way in reference to drifting and this post.

To make it simple, are you stating that because of the way the DSM drivetrain is designed, that its incapable of being a useful drift car?

 

[jtmcinder]

No. I was saying nothing about drifting. If you care, then I can tell you that it's not very hard to drift an AWD with a 50/50 center, as I show every other summer weekend in my Evo. Yes, it's easier to drift with a 35/65 center, but it can be done with a 50/50 if you know what you're doing and have a decent form of center limited slip.

No, the point of my first post today was to warn people that nonsense about torque splits would be frowned upon. My second was to point out that the idea - expressed by you - that a welded center can only send 50% of the torque to the rear was complete and utter nonsense. And that's my main goal here: to stop the frequent erroneous posts about how our center diffs work.

 

[phizzalot]

well jtmcinder, seems like the amount of posts about the way torque split is distributed on this forum is getting to you...

My main reason for inviting KHracing to this forum is to show that RWD Drifting with the dsm drivetrain is capable and to combat the negative posts about it not being able to do so..

Your post about being able to drift in your evo every other summer weekend is silly in my opinion as I have an evo as well that can drift if I wanted.

 

[KHRacing]

I am actually confused by the removal of your front sway bar. Do you know the function of your sway bars? The sway bars keeps the tires mounted to the surface, whether it be ashphalt, dirt, or snow.

Have you ever driven a car without the front sway bar? It's horrible in the corners.

A lot of serious drift actually do loosen /take off the front swaybar for more sideways traction. Although, the car will be more unstable on straights at high speed.

I found aonther video from August 2010:

Garaget | TEAM DRIFT E V O @ Anderstorp Raceway

 

[HadesOmega]

If you were really serious about drifting you'd get a RWD though, getting a AWD to drift using powersliding (like when doing drift donuts) alone is asking a lot from the drivetrain. You'll break stuff like crazy. Plus AWD DSM trannys are notorious for breaking. I've riden in Alex Pfeifer's AE86 back in the days and done some RWD drifting and you have to be very violent especially if you don't have a lot of power. Plus at least I know for sure 2Gs understeer A LOT so you have to setup your suspension very well. I finally was able to tune out most of the understeer out of my GST but my RS you can just throw it around because the engine placement of the 420A is much better than the 4G63.

 

[Lofty]

x2 on the RWD platform.

 

[turboglenn]

Whe converting a DSM to RWD is it the rear Diff and axles that becomethe weak point? seems like you could use a diff from another brand car's IRS and then some stronger axles as well, and aside from turning the extr driveline wieght meant for the FWD setup you'd be alright with the welded center diff, or hell even put a for 9 inch back there

A local guy and friend of mine welded up the Cd's and had ran his old turbo laser and another guys car in RWD mode for a while (had a youtube video with like a mile long burnout up for a while - it was a red 1g laser) but from what i remember he said it was the rear that breaks so like i said aside from wasted energy to the front diff and CV cups keeping the trans from leaking it seems like if you wanted you could make a decently stout RWD eclispe while keeping the transverse engine/trans setup using the t-case (or maybe a 300m t-case) and at that point since there's no front drive the ratios wouldn't matter at all since it would have nothing to have to match

thisis just me thinking sideways though, and i don't know from experience what really goes wrong when you run them like this, but i do think it would be fun to have a way to unhook the front drive and play in RWD when you wanted