e85 and water/meth??

[black97spyder]

I was wondering if anyone is using e85 and water/meth both? Or is water/meth strictly for pump gas??

What would be better to run in a high 9 sec DD (closest e85 station is 1.5 hrs and I have a 55 gal drum to transport it)?? I plan on the car being drove at minimum 5 out of 7 days a week (for now )

I don't know much about water/meth but got a great deal on AEM's 1 gallon progressive water/meth kit (p/n 30-3000) and have already paid for my e85 tune for when the car is finally up and running..... so I would like to run both but ONLY if it will make an increase in power, if not, which one would result in more whp?

thanks guys!

 

[2g spyder eclipse]

Seems pointless to run both. I always thought meth was mainly for pump gas.

 

[ram rt]

Id start with e85 if you notice detonation at high boost levels I'm sure you could do water meth. Your mileage will be way lower then on pump gas, I don't see it being practical for a dd if your nearest station is 1.5hrs away but let us know how it pans out.

 

[boost97gst]

You can run even more boost and more timing. e85 along with meth would be ideal for someone who really REALLY wanted to wring out a smaller turbo. But, it would have benefits to any turbo. It'll do the same as e85: allow more boost more timing. 9 sec car? Yea, if you bought it, run it. It cant hurt. As long as theres a safety interlock in the system so you dont run dry mid pull.....

 

[basshead]

Since you have that great of a distance to drive to the nearest E85 station, it's not even worth going E85.

Also keep in mind that E85 requires anywhere from 30-40% more fuel to produce the same power as gas.
If you then inject water/meth into a cylinder that already has lower space for liquid (in gaseous form) you may risk your head gasket due to the fact that E85 now occopy more space in the cylinder than gas did.
At higher RPM there's a elevated risk for hydrolocking damage. (Been there, done that...)

So if you are to run E85, run it without water/meth. E85 benefits from already burning at a lower temp and can take much more timing advance than gas.

Personally i love E85.

 

[black97spyder]

Okay thanks for the Input guys! I have 35 gallons of e85 right now so looks like I will need to burn it . Then I guess I can just use water/meth after I use up all my e85.... and I bet I can get the money used for an e85 tune (that I haven't got yet) to be used towards a speed density tune since im switching from a 2g MAF to speed density

I kind of thought that water/meth was just for pump gas and u guys have cleared that up..... but now comes the question....

Which one will net more whp, e85 or water/meth??

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

You can still inject water on top of the E85 like I do.

It will keep Cylinder Head and Exhaust temps down, clean the chamber and as a bonus the phase change for H2O from liquid to gas involves a very large expansion ratio.

I inject at the turbo, the IC and the throttle body.

 

[black97spyder]

Land speed, can u tell a noticeable difference with the water/meth on top of the e85?

If I do one nozzle at the t/b elbow should I put it before or after the AIT sensor for SD? And should i run a second 550cc jet at the inlet of the hotside on the I/C core?

My goal is around 700awhp through my auto and sister speed converter at about 40-45 psi on a 6 blade hx40 with bep t3 hotside but know I will probly fall short some on the hp but as long as it gets 650 I will be happy.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Land speed, can u tell a noticeable difference with the water/meth on top of the e85?

If I do one nozzle at the t/b elbow should I put it before or after the AIT sensor for SD? And should i run a second 550cc jet at the inlet of the hotside on the I/C core?

My goal is around 700awhp through my auto and sister speed converter at about 40-45 psi on a 6 blade hx40 with bep t3 hotside but know I will probly fall short some on the hp but as long as it gets 650 I will be happy.

You won't really be fuel limited at only 700whp with E85, so it comes down to how you prefer to use the water.

My use is primarily for fighting IC heat-soak, cooling the cylinder head/valves and turbine wheel on passes that may last several miles for LSR.

Mine are mounted before and after the IAT, but I tried to space them in a way that the water should have atomized and started changing state (absorbing heat) by the time the mass injected by the first two nozzles reach the point in the charge piping where the sensor is located.

Two 2GPH nozzles up stream and then a 10GPH nozzle at the TB, fed by a 220psi pump.

 

[black97spyder]

Do u think I could reach 700awhp or close with pump gas and water/meth? Or to obtain that goal do you think ill have to be running e85?? Im not after convenience as much as i am horsepower, im just looking to go real fast in a straight line and my end goal is high 9's in the 1/4 mile

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

You are going to want E85 to make that 700whp and it's just not going to happen with an HX40 especially through an auto trans.

To make 700whp on pump gas would require a massive turbo.. think T4 footprint GT42/GT45R, S400sx, etc.

 

[BoostforBreakfast]

Your mileage will be way lower then on pump gas, I don't see it being practical for a dd.

Not when tuned properly. You can run e85 much leaner (lambda) than gasoline. I tune for around 16.4-16.8 gas afr's cruising. On personal cars, I've ran into the 17's in certain parts of the map. Zero problems. The cars I've tuned on e85 still get nearly, if not the same mpg cruising..... boost is a different story, however

 

[boost97gst]

I dont see why that hx40 wouldnt get you in the high 9s. On e85. As far as 700hp? Even crank horsepower, no way. Not on a 40. Like ^^^ said, you also have AT so thats going to draw even more power. You're going to go really fast with the combo you have. Give it a shot and forget about whp numbers. That AT will get you great ETs, thats a huge bonus. Want 700whp through an auto? Id go with the 3794. Thats a whole lot of money though. I believe it could be done with a t3, just has to be a monster of a turbo.

Not when tuned properly. You can run e85 much leaner (lambda) than gasoline. I tune for around 16.4-16.8 gas afr's cruising. On personal cars, I've ran into the 17's in certain parts of the map. Zero problems. The cars I've tuned on e85 still get nearly, if not the same mpg cruising..... boost is a different story, however

Thats damn near GDI type afrs. Good info.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I will PayPal you one whole dollar if you can find a verifiable 700whp DSM (No MIVEC) running pump (93 Unleaded or worse) gas through a T3 housing.

It's not impossible of course, but that'd be like finding a unicorn with two dicks.

 

[untouchablecc]

Forced Performance Turbochargers: FP HTZ Super 99 Ball Bearing

does this count? I dunno what they make on pump but 1000hp on race gas id say 700 isnt to far from the mark for pump

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

No, that doesn't count.

 

[untouchablecc]

Doesn't hurt to try

 

[BoostforBreakfast]

race gas is way different than pump.... WAY.... cant even really compare race gas making xxxxwhp equals pump gas making xxxwhp.

 

[untouchablecc]

I know im just bored and wanted to win a dollar.

 

[black97spyder]

Haha thanks guys that was kind of funny... I was thinking of actually going with that turbo along with a different converter to hold the higher power levels later on down the road so I know eventually I will get to my goal of 700awhp through my auto.

What do u guys think hp wise I will be making on e85 with that 6 blade hx40 at 40-45psi on a Manley bottom end with 9.5:1 compression, ported and polished, and bc's new 284 cams?? (was told by the BC rep they were very close to a kelford 280 grind)

Thanks you guys have been a big help so far!

 

[boost97gst]

DSM Forums - View Profile: yellow90tsi

What a terrible rendering of the famed "Two Dick Unicorn". All i could come with. hehehe

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Nailed it!

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Haha thanks guys that was kind of funny... I was thinking of actually going with that turbo along with a different converter to hold the higher power levels later on down the road so I know eventually I will get to my goal of 700awhp through my auto.

What do u guys think hp wise I will be making on e85 with that 6 blade hx40 at 40-45psi on a Manley bottom end with 9.5:1 compression, ported and polished, and bc's new 284 cams?? (was told by the BC rep they were very close to a kelford 280 grind)

Thanks you guys have been a big help so far!

It's tough to say, the type of dyno will make a big difference for starters.

On a Dynapack (Hub Dyno) you would have a much better chance of getting a graph that reads 700 than on a DynoJet, let alone a Mustang unit.

My last setup using the same shortblock but with:
1G head I sunk about 30 hours of hand work
Divided T4 frame S200sx-59mm (basically the Borg equivalent to the HX40)
Custom cam grind also similar to Kelford 280/276s
37-38psi boost on Pump 93, Toluene and 10GPH Water/Meth

I was seeing regularly 65-67lbs/min. This was in a 1G FWD 5MT and accel vs. weight put me solidly in the 600s.

Was making probably about the same peak power (600whp on a Mustang Dyno) and definitely more torque than I am now by a good margin but this new setup is still on a very conservative tune, artificially lowered redline and low boost while I work the kinks out and get used to the new powerband and gearing (AWD Gearbox/FWD Final Drive = SUPER TALL ratios).

 

[boost97gst]

hahahaha

 

[Archer Fabrications]

^interesting about the fwd final drive

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

You don't want it for a 1/4 mile car. Even on a 24.5" tire I have more gear available than the most powerful 4G63 to date could use