E85 + 22psi + AEM EMS = 559/407

[TheBoz]

0.015"
35psi+
GT35r

Awesome, thanks for the info. I will try to gap down to .018 and see if that cleans up.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

I do not get when people say to run a hotter plug on e85..You need a colder plug. I ran 6's like others stated and a ton of knock! Then 7s and still knock. Then 8s and no knock. 8s are perfect on .026 gap.

Because E85 burns so cold and slow you need a hot plug to ignite it.

 

[jm1080]

Because E85 burns so cold and slow you need a hot plug to ignite it.

I think it should be the other way around though, if e85 burns cold, you would need a colder plug not a hotter one? How can you explain the knock when running a hotter plug? From experience, runnning 8s is much better than 6s and 7s. I guess it depends on vehicle, but on mine it performs much better on 8s rather than 6s. 6s and 7s will give so much knock (in my vehicle)

 

[TheBoz]

So here are the basics.

2.0 9000rpm rev limit
37r @ 25psi
AEM EMS
Cali E85

So for the last week or so I have been fighting this knock on e85. I have tried everything under the son to get this knock.

I have gone from 12.0 afrs - 13.0afr's
I have gone from BRP7ES @.020 - BR8ES @ .024-.018
I have run lots of timing and very little timing. I am kinda at my witts end here. Any advice will be helpful.

Also if you want the full log file I can email it to you.

As you can see from the log below, the car will start to knock pretty bad at 8200rpm and 12.50 AFR and 14.3* of timing. It starts to missfire and then by about 8500rpm the will buck and just start to loose tons of power.

Current conditions during this run.
BR8ES @ .018
25psi
3* @ peek boost
16* @ peek rpm

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[sbiggi]

Something isnt right, are you sure your wideband is reading correctly?
Sounds like it is reading richer then you actualy are.

Those timing numbers seem extremely low to be having any issue with knock on e85 or c16 but every car is different.

I run 17 degrees of timing at peak torque ramping up to 23 at redline. ~11.8:1
Thats 23psi (absolute) on a sc6152e.
And for some comparison, this is on 1150cc FIC injectors. running around 85-90 Injector Duty Cycle depending on the temperature.

 

[TheBoz]

Well up top the ignition breaks up pretty bad. I am not sure if it is AFR related, spark plug, or timing.

So I have been trying to gap down the plugs and that does not seem to work as well as I would like. So my next step is I am going to run 20* of timing up top and see what happens. When the ignition breaks up it is almost like the car starts to 2step at 8200 rpm. So I am wondering if the car just does not have enough timing up in the top.

 

[91-gsx]

Well up top the ignition breaks up pretty bad. I am not sure if it is AFR related, spark plug, or timing.

So I have been trying to gap down the plugs and that does not seem to work as well as I would like. So my next step is I am going to run 20* of timing up top and see what happens. When the ignition breaks up it is almost like the car starts to 2step at 8200 rpm. So I am wondering if the car just does not have enough timing up in the top.

I think you are right. It seems like you run a lot less timing then I have observed other people run on E85. Just imagine the amount of power from the additional timing.

Also, the bottom end must be amazingly strong on this engine. Making over 600HP with knock, and still driving away is a testament to the strength and reliability of this engine. Very impressive!

 

[rampridersrider]

Just sounds like an ignition issue, but its not spark plug related. If you have moderate airflow, low timing, and good afrs, it won't knock. Are you getting any signs of detonation on the spark plugs? With the ignition break up up top and the COP you have I would start looking into that if it were me. Maybe try switching to a stock ignition coil setup and see what it does.

 

[donniekak]

I think you are right. It seems like you run a lot less timing then I have observed other people run on E85. Just imagine the amount of power from the additional timing.

Also, the bottom end must be amazingly strong on this engine. Making over 600HP with knock, and still driving away is a testament to the strength and reliability of this engine. Very impressive!

I don't think it's knock. Looks more like a really bad misfire.

 

[91-gsx]

I don't think it's knock. Looks more like a really bad misfire.

Well, it seems like a missfire issue now. But, if you go back to post 17, he speaks of the making 600HP+ with knock taking place.

He cured the knock, and is now plagued with a missfire. This is my understanding of the situation. I might be misunderstanding something, it happens.

 

[TheBoz]

Well, it seems like a missfire issue now. But, if you go back to post 17, he speaks of the making 600HP+ with knock taking place.

He cured the knock, and is now plagued with a missfire. This is my understanding of the situation. I might be misunderstanding something, it happens.

So yes this is a really bad missfire. I dont know if the missfire was brought on by knock or if it is all a bad set of missfires.

I have been dealing with lots of knock through out my tuning of E85. As soon as I turned up the boost to 25psi the engine noise has been going up. So I have been working on getting the knock minimized. In doing so, at first the car made good clean pulls up to 9000rpm, now with the adjustments and changes I am getting the missfire up in the top.

As for the 600+hp this is VDR HP, and the torque was around 420tq.

I will let everyone know how the changes go for tonight.

 

[#40Fan]

Any possibility that there is a piston slap/valve train noise that is causing the "knock"?

 

[TheBoz]

Plugs always look good.

Last nigh I did a few tests.

1. Checked for anything loose in the engine compartement/attached to the motor that migh have been loose. If loose I tightend up.
2. Put new Dieletric Grease on the COP between the Coil Conductor Spring and Plug
3. I increased the timing up top from 16* to 20*
4. No change to AFR.

Knock was exactly the same. So this tells me it is not a timing issue.

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Second Run
1. Added fuel from 7300rpm to 9000rpm
2. Set Target AFR's to 12.3
3 Timing still at 1.2* peek boost 21* peek rpm

Car made a much cleaner pull to redline. There was still knock up in the top but no where near as bad as before.

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[#40Fan]

Give it hell and dump the tank in it! Not really, but you know what I mean. Gie it some more fuel and see what happens.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Did you mean 12* at peak boost not 1.2*. Because that is a crazy low number.

 

[TheBoz]

1.2* at full boost during spoolup. So for be about 4800rpm-5000rpm.

Everyone seems to say that E85 like very little timing about peek torque. So I am going to pull some timing at around 6k and ramp up nasty after that.

This whole E85 has been a huge learning exp. Way different than pump gas and Q16.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

That is a new one too me. Typically 14*-16* at peak torque on that big of a turbo is common with advancement from there.

 

[lag monster]

Sorry to bump in this is an interesting topic. But I do not understand what e85 is???? And what are the plugs u guys speek of??? Sorry for the newb questions

 

[TheBoz]

E85 is 85% ethonal and 15% gasoline. This is just a differnt type of fuel. Not all areas have this at the pump.

That is a new one too me. Typically 14*-16* at peak torque on that big of a turbo is common with advancement from there.

Here is one link. There are a lot more like this on the Evo forums. I do know that an EVO is not a DSM. But the E85 info here is pretty limited at best.

From the thread
The "typical" peak timing I see goes something like this:

Stock turbo / FPgreen:

Evo 9 = 18-19*
Evo 8 = 22-23*

50trim / BBK / etc:

Evo 9 = 16-18*
Evo 8 = 18-20*

35R / FP3065 / etc:

Evo 9 = 14-15*
Evo 8 = 16-17*


evolutionm.net - View Single Post - E85 hints and tips…

Image of some timing number on an FP Green Evo

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One last thing, as I have been pulling timing, I have not seen a huge drop off in torque. Myabe about 20ft but considering I went from ~10* to 1.2* and only lost 20ft, that to me means I was way past MBT. I am going to continue to pull timing until I start to see the 8-10ft drop off. Then I will start to dial the timing back up.

I think that I should have started with my pump gas map and not my Q16 map, and that would have made it much easier to dial in my timing because I would only be able to go up on that map, where as with my Q16 map the timing was already high.

I will be hitting the dyno in a few weeks here, and I am going to start at 0psi and basicly work my way up to 35-40psi. The last few weeks I have been trying to learn what the e85 likes and does not like. This way I can really test out the MBT and see how much timing the car really wants.

 

[#40Fan]

Want to know if you are actually getting knock. Check out this thread. Easy to make tool to listen for it.

www.neons.org • View topic - $29 "det can" how-to

 

[TheBoz]

Want to know if you are actually getting knock. Check out this thread. Easy to make tool to listen for it.

www.neons.org • View topic - $29 "det can" how-to

That is some straight ###### rigged stuff right there. I wonder where the duct tape is?

The E85 knock pattern is very similar to my Q16 and 91oct patterns. So when I get a spike in knock I am pretty sure that it is real.

My engine does make a lot of noise(Solid Motor Mounts) and other items that really make it noisy. However on all other types of gas my knock follows a very specific pattern.

 

[#40Fan]

The link was just something to think about. Even though they are pretty ghetto, they work like a charm. You aren't relying on a piece of equipment which might give you false readings.

 

[EclipticalGS]

Your sure your not running out of fuel?
Is your wb02 reading right?
Could anything be vibrating?

 

[TheBoz]

Your sure your not running out of fuel?
Is your wb02 reading right?
Could anything be vibrating?

IDC are around 70%

If I was running out of pump the car would start to go lean up in the top. Since the afr is adjusting as I adjust it, I am sure that I have plenty of fuel for 25psi.

I have gone through the car and double checked everything to make sure it was good and tight. I am about 99% sure this is a tune issue.

I will be hitting the dyno soon, and I will be able to really work the Ignition Timing, and I think I will be able to get a better idea of what the car is looking for. I am still playing with the car on the streets, just have not done any major changes.

The other thing I am going to do this weekend is change the car to direct fire, for the coils. So that I can ensure that this is not a waste spark issue.

 

[killercolt]

Yes in pratice that sounds great, however I can show you log file that says otherwise. My car does not like lean AFR's even on 91oct(10.8), Q16(11.8-12.2), and Now E85. I am going to get me a new WB O2 and see if maybe my AEM WB is giving me false readings. On all the fuels, I have tweaked the AFR's lean and rich to see how the logs would react, and I have played with the timing up and down also. Once I get to 30psi, I will really spend a lot of time working on it there.

When I was tuning 30psi on Q16 I did about 28 pulls to dial in the 30psi range. I tested different AFR's, and different timing.

Here is a log from e85 and 12.4 AFR's. I will try to lean it out a little more and see what happens. But I really think that my car like to be a little more rich.

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12.4 afr for e85 is way too lean. it needs to be around 8:1. however, some wide band will not read that low. to combat this, you need to convert to lambda. go to the configure menu on your aem and change the unit of the afr to lambda. staying around .83-.85 will make you the most power.

So here are the basics.

2.0 9000rpm rev limit
37r @ 25psi
AEM EMS
Cali E85

So for the last week or so I have been fighting this knock on e85. I have tried everything under the son to get this knock.

I have gone from 12.0 afrs - 13.0afr's
I have gone from BRP7ES @.020 - BR8ES @ .024-.018
I have run lots of timing and very little timing. I am kinda at my witts end here. Any advice will be helpful.

Also if you want the full log file I can email it to you.

As you can see from the log below, the car will start to knock pretty bad at 8200rpm and 12.50 AFR and 14.3* of timing. It starts to missfire and then by about 8500rpm the will buck and just start to loose tons of power.

Current conditions during this run.
BR8ES @ .018
25psi
3* @ peek boost
16* @ peek rpm

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

you are running way too lean and that is why you making that kind of knock. converted the unit to lambda and hit the dyno again. target .83-.85 and you will make some sick power. i am running a 11:1 and gt35r setup on e85 making 568hp at 21psi running and 17* of timing with no knock. my friend has dyno and i get to experiment all sort of things on it. we find that anything over .90 lambda and the power and torque will drop. i am suprise you are making that kind of power running that lean. make sure your map sensor is selected correctly in the aem setup menu. if you set up the wrong map sensor, then you will log the wrong boost level.