E-85 + 1450's = NO START

[TWOpointFORliter]

Just dropped my car off to get tuned and shortly after I got a call and was told my car will not start with the 1450 injectors. Before you rip my tuner just know he is very reputable in the dsm community and really knows his stuff. He said with the Blue Max 1450's it is really hit and miss with the car being able to run them. Something about not enough voltage? Is there any type of booster for the injector voltage? Should I go through the electrical system and upgrade grounds and power wires? Or should I follow his advise and get some 1250's instead of the 1450's? Since I dont really need that much injector right now I was just trying to plan ahead.

 

[awdspyder98]

when I was running fic1450's the car would run just fine. The idle and cruise was alittle hesitant due to voltage. I installed a easytune box and it solved the issue. Im questioning your tuner due to the fact that so many people run those 1450's without issue. I would lean toward the global/deadtime being off before I would assume anyrthing else.. thats if your running link. If your tuning with a afc then that would probably be pushing the limit on it.

 

[4g63t]

You DONT need a easy tune box. This has been covered so many times. The BM 1450's run grate with e85.
We are going to need to know the settings and a log if you expect any help.

 

[TWOpointFORliter]

I have no log since the car would not start and it is currently 2 hours away. I read all the BM 1450 threads I could find before i even installed them. I used the global and deadtime settings I found in this thread http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/368833-fic-bluemax-1450cc-tuning.html as a starting point -49/570 I believe. I realize many people run these injectors without issues(which is why I bought them) but that doesn't mean just as many don't run them because they DO have issues. My battery was a little drained from a few minutes of trying to start the car myself but he even tried a jump box to get maximum voltage and get it started without any luck. The car ran perfect an hour before I drained the tank filled it with e-85 and installed the injectors. I tripple checked my installation and base fuel pressure but the car just will not start.

 

[brian9397gsx]

Weird my good friend is running the same injectors on e85 with 044 pump no issues. Im not familiar but are those the deadtimes for e85 or pump?

 

[TWOpointFORliter]

Yes those were the "base" settings recommended in the thread.

Well I decided to just have them order some 1250's and install them for me. Even though I don't think they will be big enough when the hx35 goes on and I hate having to pay someone to do something I could easily do myself.

This will get my car running for the summer but still leaves the question why will these injectors not work with my car? When down time comes this winter should I start upgrading wiring? Like running 0 gauge from the trunk battery to the front instead of 4 gauge. Maybe a Saturn alternator swap? I can't find and easy tune box anywhere are the discontinued? I really feel I will need these injectors to really push the hx35 so I'm open to suggestions to make them work.

 

[zcoh2gdsm]

call FIC and tell them the problem. if they are defective they'll send you new ones.

 

[Calan]

My bet is on too low of a deadtime value at the low voltage points (in the InjBatteryAdj DA table). Tom Doris discovered that at least some of these injectors have crazy deadtime at low voltage...and when you crank the car (especially with a weak battery), the voltage can really drop off, to the point that there isn't enough to overcome the mechanical latency of the injector.

Check out post #205 in this thread.

 

[MY1GDSM]

This ^
It's really hard to get the lowest voltage points set for deadtime in a Car compared to on a work bench... Also , there's no way using the Deadtime adjustment in the ECMfile is going to ever work right in with them it needs to be set is DA per voltage.

But, regardless it's more then Likely settings in the tune or a actual problem with the car not the Injectors themselves keeping the car from running... .

Im not familiar but are those the deadtimes for e85 or pump?

Deadtimes shouldn't be changing based on fuels the time it takes for the injector to react does not change based on fuels.(though running different fuels will put you at a different minimum pulse-width Hence why big injectors Run better on E85) if your going off of what people have posted for their injectors the difference is from the fact that no 2 sets are going to be exactly the same.

 

[Calan]

...the time it takes for the injector to react does not change based on fuels....

Well it could theoretically, if the difference in viscosity was high enough.

 

[brian9397gsx]

Good to know thanks for clearing it up. I talked to him i he thinks his are in the 900 range he doesnt know for sure cars down for cage among other things

 

[Hal]

If your tuner can't figure out why it won't start, you need to go find another tuner.

People who can't do basic problem determination shouldn't be installing parts and then charging you for the learning experience.

 

[TWOpointFORliter]

If your tuner can't figure out why it won't start, you need to go find another tuner.

People who can't do basic problem determination shouldn't be installing parts and then charging you for the learning experience.

My tuner happens to have the fastest awd 2g out there and is one of the coolest shop owners I have ever met. I seriously doubt he would advise me wrong or try to make me spend money on things I didnt need. He has just said he always has problems with the 1450's and recommends against them. That is why I am looking for any knowledge I can find on these injectors because I plan to reinstall them this winter for the turbo upgrade.

Thanks for all the advise and info so far. You guys are awesome.


Calan that link is great I wish i would have had that info while the car was still in my garage. Also I will update your CC thread with how your can performed during the tuning.

 

[Imback]

Just cause your tuner has a fast car doesn't mean he can't be wrong. I have installed 5 sets of 1450's ranging from pump gas to e85 and all of them have worked perfect. I'm with HAL on this one go somewhere else.

 

[Hal]

He has just said he always has problems with the 1450's and recommends against them.

Makes me wonder even more since many "amateurs" get them working just fine.

Even if it's not the injectors and it's your fault. Say you didn't plug a sensor back in, he should still be able to find the issue quickly.

You bought 1450's, and now had them order 1250's.

That's spending money needlessly.

Hal

 

[TWOpointFORliter]

You bought 1450's, and now had them order 1250's.

That's spending money needlessly.

Hal

Ok I'll give you that.

He is right in saying 1450's are WAY more than I need while still on the 16g

 

[bradikus7]

I hope you get things figured out. This is partly why I wish I had just ordered 2150's and called it a day to begin with. I'm about to go for them soon and will have to take a loss on my 1000's. Oh well, ya live, ya learn. I don't have a ton of experience, but I'd imagine as expensive as those injectors are that they are not all going to be hit or miss.

 

[turboglenn]

I'll trade you my bosch 1600's (working fine on stock volts) FOR THOSE 1450'S(I WANTED 1250';SOR 1450'S AND CAME across 1600's and feel i went to big for my goals