dsm vs rx7

[Red97Eclipseboy]

I know that with my setup I can light up the tires in any gear if I was fwd or rwd. I don't want to have to sink tons of time and money into getting traction. I dont know much about the 60' times of fwd and rwd cars, but I dont think that there are too many of them that can run sub 1.8 60' times with street tires on a daily basis.

I'm not comparing FWD to AWD. I'm not saying that AWD sucks by any means... I just hate the "AWD is unbeatable" attitude. Sorry, but if you don't want to sink money into your suspension, then you don't want a real race car. Who builds a bad-ass car without doing a kick-ass suspension setup? That's weak and half-ass. F-body's hook like no tomorrow. Maybe I've been hanging out with too many V8 guys, but when I see rear-ends and drive-shafts explode from them hooking too hard, that's hard to deny. I can't wait to build a V8!

 

[danielbui]

I'm not comparing FWD to AWD. I'm not saying that AWD sucks by any means... I just hate the "AWD is unbeatable" attitude. Sorry, but if you don't want to sink money into your suspension, then you don't want a real race car. Who builds a bad-ass car without doing a kick-ass suspension setup? That's weak and half-ass. F-body's hook like no tomorrow. Maybe I've been hanging out with too many V8 guys, but when I see rear-ends and drive-shafts explode from them hooking too hard, that's hard to deny. I can't wait to build a V8!

there are 4 to 5 guys around here AWD making 500+hp on stock suspension and street tires runnin 11's and high 10's. no sticky tires needed.

 

[Defiant]

Right... 'cause all the 8 and 9 second V8 guys I know have AWD. Give me a break. AWD is not the end-of-all-means of traction. A RWD with a good suspension setup and sticky tires will be right with or out-hook an AWD. I've seen it plenty of times. And since you don't like anything to do with street racing, clearly I'm talking about hooking at the track. That's the one thing I can't stand about DSM people. "Oh, man... if you're not AWD, your traction will suck. We're the shit!" And your little just furthers my point. AWD is best, right? "Hey, I have AWD and someone doesn't think it's the best like I do... I better show him!"

Some think there's more to driving than a ¼-mile in a straight line.

 

[phunny]

With the proper maintenance, tuning and cooling system upgrades an fd will be just as reliable as any other modified turbocharged car. Yes vacuum lines will get brittle and break, but show me a 13 year old turbocharged car that doesn't have broken factory vacuum lines. The car in the picture I posted has about every possible modification done to it, and it did not have any reliability problems. The mods weren't on the extreme side but enough to make 400 whp at 15 psi. The only problem with the car was the owner and his lack of maintenance. Like I said earlier if you upgrade the cooling system and go with a single turbo you eliminate 90% of the reliability issues.

An apex seal serves the same purpose as a set of piston rings do. They are seated at the 3 "apex's" of the rotor. A set of springs beneath them provides some tension to keep the seal seated against the rotor housings. Factory apex seals are made of cast iron and are hardened at the surface. Aftermarket seals are usually the same material but there are ceramic seals and a few other materials out there. 2mm seals always seal better than 3mm seals, but the 3mm seals will take a lot more abuse. I wouldn't just tear into the motor to replace the apex seals, but if it's apart and you want some added security, then its a worthwhile upgrade.

If you want some good info on rotary engines look here http://www.rotaryengineillustrated.com/

HAHA, I don't mean to sound like a jerk but have you ever replaced the vaccuum lines on a 93 RX-7? It's not like our cars, first there are like 50 of them and then there isn't a really great diagram I've seen yet, and some of those lines are practically impossible to get to. And if you cross 1 wrong, good game, you lose. Not to mention some of the nipples the lines run into get brittle and break. The engines are easier to work on, but with all the other crap it's horrible. Lets not forget to mention that 7 outta 8 rx-7's leak oil, and those motors don't last that long. Just my .02 (from experiance)

 

[WIDECLIPSE]

I don't see awd's doing that.

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[Red97Eclipseboy]

Some think there's more to driving than a ¼-mile in a straight line.

I agree with you 100%. I am one of those.

 

[Red97Eclipseboy]

there are 4 to 5 guys around here AWD making 500+hp on stock suspension and street tires runnin 11's and high 10's. no sticky tires needed.

Okay, that's great for them, but imagine how much more efficient they could be with a proper suspension setup. How can anybody argue tuning a proper suspension setup? This is killing me! ! There are also plenty of F-body's doing the same numbers with far less money into their motors than those DSMs, but with a good suspension setup. Displacement... goood! Well, I'm done hi-jacking this thread. Too far off topic. That's how I feel and arguing with me won't change anything.

 

[mirkoelek]

I don't see awd's doing that.

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that is kinda cooool man,

 

[TSIMonsteR]

Okay, that's great for them, but imagine how much more efficient they could be with a proper suspension setup. How can anybody argue tuning a proper suspension setup? This is killing me! ! There are also plenty of F-body's doing the same numbers with far less money into their motors than those DSMs, but with a good suspension setup. Displacement... goood! Well, I'm done hi-jacking this thread. Too far off topic. That's how I feel and arguing with me won't change anything.

If your going to put them down so heavily, why are you even on here? But are you going to sit there and tell me that RWD and FWD can hook just as good as AWD with no modification? No! Shut up Loser AWD is better

 

[Red97Eclipseboy]

If your going to put them down so heavily, why are you even on here? But are you going to sit there and tell me that RWD and FWD can hook just as good as AWD with no modification? No! Shut up Loser AWD is better

Actually, loser, I never said FWD can hook like AWD. Learn to read. Second, I'm not putting those DSMs down. Read between the lines. Last, I never said RWD could do it without modification. Again, reading can be useful. So, no, I'm not going to tell you that 'cause I never did. Sorry.

 

[Bostedquest]

ok, I would go with the 87-88 RX...

as far as RWD traction?
I have seen Fox, F bodies and C3/4/5 go 1.55 and better all day long with DOT legal street tires.
It's not hard. Most the time it is just a matter of replacing the rear control arms.
I most certainly am not bashing the DSM, but I will definatly be going back to domestic VERY soon.
The DSM unreliability is killing me.
I have never had so much trouble with a car before (and that is including a van that went through 4 trannies in 4 months).
I will be looking for a nice 88 GTA, or 91-92 F body in the very near future...

 

[ACKERSON]

These rwd cars that do 1.55 60', they wouldn't happen to be dot legal drag radials would they? I'm talking about a generic street tire. And I don't have a problem sinking money into my suspension but I'm not going to spend $1,000 or more on a rwd or fwd just to match a stock awd. I would rather start with awd and not have to worry about spinning my tires.

Okay, that's great for them, but imagine how much more efficient they could be with a proper suspension setup. How can anybody argue tuning a proper suspension setup?

I agree that tuning a proper suspension setup is the way to go in any situation. However our awd cars can't be any more efficient if we aren't spinning our tires, so it would be a waste of money to upgrade unless it was for safety purposes or we were spinning our tires. Even then all we would have to do is upgrade to some sticky tires. We don't need tubular control arms, or subframe connectors, or traction bars, or dot drag radials to run very quick 60' times.

I didn't even start having traction problems until I was making over 450whp. Are there any 450 whp f bodies with kumho 712's and no suspension mods that could keep up with me for the first 60'? Very unlikely.

I agree that any car is going to have brittle vacuum lines after 13 years. I am fully aware of how many vacuum lines are on an fd. I have done the rats nest elimination on more than one.

I don't agree that the rx7 is any less reliable than any other modified turbocharged car as long as it's in the right hands. People put crappy gas in them and wonder why the apex seals break. They do have cooling issues, but they are easily remedied. You also have to be very careful with your tuning.

The picture of the red FD at the beginning of this thread was something that my brother and I built for a friend in two weekends. We had never touched or even seen under the hood of an fd. The car had almost every modification you can think of. Definitely not a hard car to work on.

 

[EvolvingGST]

Interesting how far this has gone, can we stop the fighting here? Grow up guys... The FD is an awesome car, if you don't mind doing pressure test its alright you will be fine... All modified cars have issues, if you treat a DSM like crap they will be unreliable as hell same with a RX7. Given you will have to treat your RX7 a little better than a DSM to keep it running as long.. But the RX7 is really on a different league..

I mean that in all respects, its not a car that is made to go in a strait line, can they? yes they can very well, but it is said to be the best cornering machine ever made, that is challenged by many cars that we know and love. The DSM is not one of them. We are kinda the understeer kings of the world..

The question is what are you looking for in a car? Fast and cheap a DSM. Fast and Cool get a RX7. Fast around a corner get a RX7. Fast on street tires on a 1/4 get a DSM.

I've driven all types of cars FWD(my eclipse), RWD(my brother's 240sx s and Z4), AWD(my 3000GT VR4 and my friend's WRX). Each is very different for every driver, I could like one for one thing but not another. Pick a car that suites your desires, how it feels to you, go drive a FD and see how it feels to you... I drove my friend's FD and I loved it, but i can feel how light it is, and honestly I would kill myself cornering in that car because I corner to the limit in all cars and that one is capable of being insanely fast in a corner... But it gives you no sense of security.

Now as for 1/4 times I can't argue with just what I know... Most of my friends run on pump gas with AWD DSMs and are the fastest I know. All of them are in the low 12s high 11s. So you can get there a lot easier in the 1/4 with a DSM. But what are you looking for.

-Jason "R*ce"

 

[Red97Eclipseboy]

These rwd cars that do 1.55 60', they wouldn't happen to be dot legal drag radials would they? I'm talking about a generic street tire. And I don't have a problem sinking money into my suspension but I'm not going to spend $1,000 or more on a rwd or fwd just to match a stock awd. I would rather start with awd and not have to worry about spinning my tires.



I agree that tuning a proper suspension setup is the way to go in any situation. However our awd cars can't be any more efficient if we aren't spinning our tires, so it would be a waste of money to upgrade unless it was for safety purposes or we were spinning our tires. Even then all we would have to do is upgrade to some sticky tires. We don't need tubular control arms, or subframe connectors, or traction bars, or dot drag radials to run very quick 60' times.

I didn't even start having traction problems until I was making over 450whp. Are there any 450 whp f bodies with kumho 712's and no suspension mods that could keep up with me for the first 60'? Very unlikely.
.

Dude, who cars if the tires are Kuhmos or DOT legal drags? The fact is, those times are achieved through something other than AWD and are still 100% street-cars. That's it... plain and simple. That's all I was trying to say. And so what if it can't keep up with you in the 60'. If seen so many races out here when an AWD DSM leaves a Mustang or an F-body out of the hole, and the DSM gets tore up big time by the end. Again, I'm not hating on DSMs seeing as how I have one... I just have a great appreciation for domestics. Also, not everyone wants AWD. How easy is it to launch an AWD? The easy way doesn't float everyone's boat.

 

[danielbui]

get back on topic or DEFIANT will close this down. argue through PM's not on boards. the question is which do you prefer newer bodied RX-7 or 2g gsx.

 

[mirkoelek]

i'm seriosly gonna start thinking to get one of the fd .

 

[Bostedquest]

These rwd cars that do 1.55 60', they wouldn't happen to be dot legal drag radials would they? I'm talking about a generic street tire. And I don't have a problem sinking money into my suspension but I'm not going to spend $1,000 or more on a rwd or fwd just to match a stock awd. I would rather start with awd and not have to worry about spinning my tires.

You think a GSX will get a good 60' on "generic" tires? I think not.
You think a RWD can pull off that time with a "generic" tires? I think not.

I never said that a RWD can out-do a AWD launch, you started that idea...
I just pointed out that a 1.5 in a 60' is good, but not the fastest...

And like it is said above, A decent AWD can leave just about anything out of the hole... bu there is alot more to a 1/4 or more than 60 feet.
That 3-5 car lead at 60' disapears by the 8th mark, that is if you are still in the lead...

 

[Dimcorner]

I have owned a FD for 2 years and lemme tell you, if you end up getting one you will start to notice how AWESOME it handles and start doing more autox's. The FD is not all that great off the hole. Since in stock for it don't have much torque down low you either bog or light the tires up unless you are right at 4000 rpm and do a quick slip in of clutch to launch it good. With a GSX you can't screw it up as easily. One thing thou... they will catch up quick! Just think... 2800lbs... 320whp...

I ran a M5 and he jumped 3 cars on me (wasn't ready) but i caught up to him by the end of 4th (135mph).

However... I did take a off ramp when i had a GSX on my tail and i pretty much left him about 2 cars back when i hit the actual street. The GSX has about 500lbs more to turn than a FD and unfortunately it sits mostly up front.

Reliability wise i think the FD and the GSX are about par on the little things that break. the only time you bust a 13b engine is if you jack up the boost on a stock fuel system because the stock computer and pump is pretty much maxed out. I got my fd with 98k miles and put it to 120k miles with no problems (took it autox, drag, and circuit). A/C compressor went on it and the ignitor went.

...
man i want one bad now...

i have pictures of my car at www.fotki.com/dimcorner/cars

 

[GPTourer]

One thing thou... they will catch up quick! Just think... 2800lbs... 320whp...

I thought they were rated 255hp at the crank stock. Or was that what your modded FD had? What sort of investment does it take to get a stock FD to those levels?

 

[GVR4592]

The fd that I built made 316 whp at 9 psi. There was about 8k into it, but the plan was to exceed 450whp. 8k isnt neccesary to get 320whp. You would need basically the same mods as a dsm would need to get there. Just make sure you have good tuning and an upgraded cooling system.

 

[Malero5]

After reading most of this thread I have come to one conclusion. Money=fast....... . If you go to Aut x's you will notice that miatas,911's, and rx 7's usually dominate in the stock/street modified classes. In autocross its all bout handling and mostly low end torque. Now...i know i know.... heel toe and you can work wonders with a turbo in auto x. It just requires a lot of driving skill. When it comes to na's nicley balanced RWD cars..... nothing comes close. However..... if you go to the drag strip you will notice that you wont see many rx 7's. Rotary engines are just so hard on the rebuild. If you wanna push 400 hoarses on anyhting below a 2.5 liter you are looking at a racing engine..not a street one. This means your spending a lot of money. I am rebuilding my laser and its gonna cost me 2k in parts and 1k in machine shop work just to make somehting that can handle about 380 WHP for 60k miles. These are small engines..... if you wanna run huge HP then you need to put slack in your pistons, which leads to a car that wont run more then 25k miles. If ya dont put slack en em then you are looking to seize up your pistons in no time. I dont know too much about rotary engines, but i am sure they are a hella expensive to rebuild. Not many people out there are extremely familiar with rotary rebuilds (dont rotarys have no pistons.... Im' so lost on this subject).

If ya wanna go in a straight line...go with an AWD DSM ( i got a FWD ) and if ya wanna go auto X go with an rx 7. This is comming from a guy who is gonna auto X his DSM on a evo III/pump gas/z tires. Lets see if I have some fun next season once i get my rebuild done and all the bolt ons, on.

 

[mirkoelek]

i would like to hear it more, from people that owned both

 

[BigJohnson69]

My brother has a Single Turbo 93 rx7 t-78 and it may take a bit to spool up but when it does I cry.


I would take a rx7 over dsm if I could but my brother pretty much has all of his money ever earned in that thing and they are hard to maintain, but the fact the the engine is light and hell and can push out 420 hp to the wheels thats scary.

 

[mirkoelek]

My brother has a Single Turbo 93 rx7 t-78 and it may take a bit to spool up but when it does I cry.


I would take a rx7 over dsm if I could but my brother pretty much has all of his money ever earned in that thing and they are hard to maintain, but the fact the the engine is light and hell and can push out 420 hp to the wheels thats scary.

what takes all his money, what is the worst thing that can happen

 

[Malero5]

you can make almost any car hit 600 HP at the wheels with enough money..........