diagnostic help

[studabaker]

I got close to selling my talon there

I hit road damage and caught the drain plug and the oil leaked out.

My friend replaced my drain pan and did not see or feel obvious damage to the engine.

I cut it as soo as i heard a clicking.

The oil light came on but I had issues with sensors befoe and ignored it.

It now makes a bad clicking when the engine turns on.

I have not tried to start is again since january.

I can now afford to fix it and I am looking for a good place of some online help to get started...

Bent internals?
could it be that the oil pump has no oil in it and is trying to pump air but is meant to have oil in it?

Stuart

 

[tonyspyder]

do a compression test. that should tell you if any damage has been done internally.

 

[studabaker]

It makes a bad clicking sound when running. I dont want to start it and damage it any further. I am assuming the test requires it to be running. I need to read a book.

 

[96' Eclipse GS]

possible damaged rod bearing, caused by NO-Oil condition, Oil starvation and it can also have the (Oil Light) come on, because of housing damage, sensor, etc.

 

[josh408]

It makes a bad clicking sound when running. I dont want to start it and damage it any further. I am assuming the test requires it to be running. I need to read a book.

No the test doesn't require it to run. It requires you to crank the car over a few times while putting the tester in each cylinder, one at a time.

 

[tonyspyder]

yea true what josh said. sorry for late reply. doesnt need to start the car but it will required the whole motor to crank. piston will be moving etc. right now pull the oil pan or drain the oil out first and see it theres any metal shaving. pulling the oil pan is your best bet now. check if the crank moves at all. save the money too theres a shop manual here too. ill see if i can find the manual here. if someone can post it up it will help the op. good luck and keep us posted.

 

[studabaker]

i thought it sounded like the crnk or somethign was hitting the dent in the oil pan so I had my friend change that. There was no metal shavings in the oil pan which was good and he told me he did not feel any damage to the cylinders. I think I need to take the top off but my friend sais that is not as easy as the oil pan. I have lost touch with him and already exhausted my favor. I will be lookign for a shop but I use you guys to go into a shop counding like I know what I am talking about. The bent rod seems like a very reasonable cause for the noise. I will have that looked into.

Thank you very much

Stuart

rod bearing is the main bearing ?

I have already replaced this engine once due to a worse knocking my mechanic friend recommended I replace the entire engine. so this engine has around 20,000 mile i personall put on it with no experimental turbos.

I believe the previous owner was messing with some turbos on stock internals or something he said he rebuilt it once already when I bought it.

I am interested in more horse power than the stock 420 A however CA has some smog issues. I may rebuild it with stock parts and rebuild it again with real parts. I am looking at pistons from a guy in chicago for my engine for 600. So ill keep a set of stick internals for smogging and rebuild it every two years?
damn timing I was just going to rebuild it up after I got it smogged this year.

I have to get it smogged this year maybe Ill register it as a race car and just build it up. A show car or something.

A classic

 

[studabaker]

it is the rod bearing for sure because it makes this sound from this video

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvy_rsKzU34]Spun Rod Bearing 4G63 turbocharged engine. - YouTube[/ame]

of a 4g63 with a rod bearing issue.

I am back on my feet and going to replace the rod bearing at least.

I will probably replace other internals while i am at it although the engine was "new" or refurbished maybe 20,000 miles ago.

I had almost purchased a set of upgraded pistons from a member.

question: can this repair be done without the engine being removed?

take the top off and take the belts off and start pullnig internals out?

I know I am going to research more before I start.

a yes or no answer would be nice.

thank you

 

[josh408]

It will be best if you just take the motor out and do it then. personally I see no point in just changing the bearing as it probably already damaged the rod. But that's just me. Sometimes it's easier to do things the long way then struggling in tight places to try to get something right. Especially if you're trying to swap internals.

 

[SpryTSI]

It will be best if you just take the motor out and do it then. personally I see no point in just changing the bearing as it probably already damaged the rod. But that's just me. Sometimes it's easier to do things the long way then struggling in tight places to try to get something right. Especially if you're trying to swap internals.

If it's just minor clicking and no real damage has been done yet, you can take the rods/crank to a machine shop and they can test for damage.

I don't have much experience engine building, but for a bottom end build can you just drop the crank/rods/pistons out the bottom?

 

[studabaker]

I APPRECIATE THIS INFORMATION. I IMAGINE IT WOULD BE A TIGHT JOB ALTHOUGH COMPARED TO ENGINE REMOVAL. IN THIS CASE I AM HOPING THERE IS MINIMAL DAMAGE. MY FRIEND REPLACED THE OIL PAN AND THERE WAS NO METAL IN THE OIL AND HE SAID NO OBVIOUS DAMAGE TO THE CYLINDERS. I DONT THINK HE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TURN IT IF THERE IS ONE BAD ROD...

I AM LOOKING INTO PURCHASING A SET OF RODS. I ALMOST BOUGHT A SET OF PISTONS OFF ANOTHER MEMBER. I SHOULD GET BOTH WILE IM AT IT IF I CAN AFFORD IT. NEXT MONTH I WILL START PURCHASING.

MAYBE I WILL HAVE THE STOCK ONES CHECKED AND JUST GET BEARINGS BUT THAT IS A LOT OF WORK FOR STOCK PARTS.

I WOULD BE ONE STEP CLOSER TO A BUILD UP FOR A TURBO SETUP THAT CAN HANDLE PRESSURE OR AT LEAST MAYBE A SMOOTHER RIDE?

MAYBE BY REPLACING WITH STOCK INTERNALS I WILL LEARN FOR MY BUILDING THE ENGINE SOMEDAY.

THE EAGLE RODS SEEM GOOD.


STUART

 

[studabaker]

As of right now I am hoping that new bearings on the rods would help.

From what I have studied the rods are accessable from the pan and any removal of the crank will be a bigger job but may not be necessary to remove the rods.

I will know more after this weekend when I am planning to take the pan off and try to replace the rod bearings.

 

[studabaker]

So from research on this site I am posting my process of repair and confirming my diagnosis.

I am going to drain the oil
remove the cross member (FWD/NT)
remove the oil pan

(noting the small bolt location and I am going to use a gasket because I think its easier and since I am anticipating furhter repairs.)

I am going to remove the spark plugs to release compression so that I can rotate the internals to inspect the rod bearings. I will find the one (hopefully) that has play and is making the noise. It does only sound like one.

Once identified I will remove the rod bearing and replace it and put some special lube that i dont have yet on it before I replace the rod cap.

this will be done by unscrewing the rod bolts and then rotating the internals to where the top rod bearing can be reomved away from the crank.

I will also double check that my new rod bearing has the proper clearance with plastigauge by torquing it to specifications.

estimated cost $20

hopefully two days job. minus superbowl time.
1600 hrs
I got the oil drained and the exhaust pipe unbolted.

*** a hint is to make sure to remove the o2 sensor before unbolting the pipe.
That requires a crescent wrench, the rest was done with sockets. I got the cross member off easily. I am ready to pull the oil pan tomorrow.

I also think someone should copy my spare wheel next to the jack if working by them selves because my car is lowered and dont risk it. redundant safety is good.

I need a new cross member thing I think this one's bent in the front and I only have one bolt there! sheesh

 

[yukiz]

Get some Jack stands, that hydraulic might fail any time.
Just saying, it would not be safe for you to work with that support.


Open the old oil filter, look for metal shaving...

 

[studabaker]

Its shady doing that and jack stands would have been the way to go especially because the torque loosening and tightening the rod caps on is 65 lb/ft. I was worried about the car moving sideways. I heard I would need to remove the spark plugs to rotate the engine but I did not require the sparkplugs out to rotate the engine. just a 3/4 socket to rotate the internals.

I had some trouble with one bolt and ended up nearly stripping it. I am going to get another one if the problem is still there. that one seemed loose but not black like the others. I believe my socket was not completely flush to the bolt when attempting to loosen. It never got any less tight so I left it on for now. 11mm socket for the rod bolts and only ten mm for the oil pan bolts. I ended up reusing my gasket because it was very new and rubber and in good shape and easier that the other stuff.

Another difference from my directions is that the oil filter needs to come off for the oil pan removal.

a trick when taking the rod caps off is that the rest of the rod stays at the top of the piston and it is not pulled down without the cap on. I put the cap back on to roatae the cylinder. Maybe with the spark plugs out the rods would fall once free of the crank.

pictured are six sides of bearings from three connecting rods.

there is some metal flakes likely from the crank I assume. one o the old bearings had this layer of copper on it. this would be my culprit then?
only a few but the bearing shw clear signs of damage but not that bad.

I did not check the filter because I dont think it had much time to get into the filter I will change it out now though. I found metal flakes in the oil pan and on the connecting rod bearings. there is a groove that had metal in it or the notch of the bearing.

I did shut it off as soon as I heard the noise.


Igot the majority of the project done however I have some issues with starting it right now one being a battery.

 

[BogusSVO]

Pull the engine. No easy fix from the damage on the bearing.

The crank will need inspected, polish if you are lucky, ground if you are not, or replaced.

The big ends of the con rods need to be checked, the tolerance is .0007 from high to low spec for the housing bore.

You have metal flake everywhere, all the oil galleys need to be cleaned, and the oil cooler stands a very good chance of needing to be replaced.

If you just replace the rod bearings, you are just wasting time and money IMHO.

20k miles ago it was rebuilt, well time for that again.

If your skill set is not enough to do a rebuild, then check with supporting vendors and get a long block to drop in.

 

[SpryTSI]

I agree, with that bearing damage you should hot tank the engine block and replace/clean all oil lines.

There is also going to be damage to your crankshaft and you won't know how much until you take it to a machine shop.

At this point I'd either: Build the engine to 'factory fresh' or go pull one out of another car.

 

[studabaker]

It is clear that there is metal and enough off the crank that it is toasted I think and the rods may be ok but not reliably. even if they are ok new ones should be installed with the new crank. I think.

I will have to clean the engine of these flakes now.

I appreciate the help in diagnosing my problem because I like to know for sure.

I will post my solution.

 

[studabaker]

Having this engine problem I will be building up the internals to withstand and generate over 300 horsepower. I want it to run with out a turbo at first so I will be using the stock cams for the initial rebuild. I am going to put on quality rotating parts. Parts planned at this point are:
unorthodox under drive pulley,
new pistons (unknown brand yet),
eagle connecting rods,
new crank shaft(unknown brand),
light weight flywheel,
new bearings.
estimated parts cost: 2000$
I will call this stage one, I wont need a new computer or anything else at this point.

estimated 200 horsepower at this point.

The next stage will include turbo to generate 12-15 psi.
At this point:
dsmlink,
turbo (undecided brand and size),
fuel pressure regulator,
fuel injectors (undecided size or brand)
255 lph fuel pump,
port headers,
new cams and cam gears(undecided brand),
stock springs?
head bolts
Kevlar timing belt,
intake with intercooler and other piping/air filter, BOV,
mas air flow sensor,
oil lines to and from turbo,
new clutch, (already done fly wheel)
short throw shifter,
gauges boost, fuel, oil, (digital?)
manual boost control,
polyurethane bushings,
already have exhaust.

estimated parts cost 5000$

Thank you for helping me understand this list.

I am going to install an engine guard like on off road trucks to protect my drain plug in the future.

 

[studabaker]

There is no damage to the head from my oil leak that is obvious to me. At this point I am going back out there after draining the coolant and removal of most connections to the engine and I am going to take the belts of and take the head off with the headers intact because they are a bit rusted at least the exhaust is. I have just realized that I am going to need to drain the transmission fluid as I remove the one bolt from the transmission into the head. I want to clean what I can and leave intact the most that I can such as the cams. The belts are tucked in there but I want to recycle them at this point to get it running again before I build it up. I also have to save up for parts still.

 

[FireyIce01]

Why are you pulling the head in the car if your bottom end is your problem? You really need to just drain the fluids, get yourself an engine stand, and pull that thing out of the car. It will be FAR easier to work on if it is out of the car.

 

[studabaker]

Good question. Out of curiosity partly to be 100% that there is no other damage from the oil leak. in addition to being part of the engine removal which has proven slightly more of a challenge to remove the belts. I have been researching and planning the rest of the engine removal which i am going to do in parts and in theory drop them onto my moving dolly and lifting them onto an engine stand. I plan on taking my time rebuilding it and I am sure that putting it back is going to be more difficult however I may have access to a garage by then.

 

[studabaker]

I have confirmed some damage to be the connecting rod bearings however the resolution is complex and without objection from the moderators I am going to post my resolutions.

I no longer need help in diagnosis I am on to replacing the crank shaft. This is not my daily driver and I am low on cash so I am doing it myself with a little help from this web site.

Thank you

Today I painted my valve cover gun metal grey. I am ready to pull the head tomorrow.

I cleaned the inside of the valve cover. It was suggested somewhere to hot wash the block. I think the valve cover could benefit from that as well because there are places I cant clean . I don't think its worth it because its just the cover.

A significant challenge for me was the belts for which i needed the harmonic balance puller. Good thing they have a rental system at places for tools like this. News to me.

 

[FireyIce01]

It is a pain in the ass to get the motor in and out, you got that much right. Mainly because of the tight space they have put it in. I have never pulled the 420a (N/T) as both my projects are AWD Turbos. That being said, I don't believe you need to remove the harmonic balancer to get the belts off. You're right about the valve cover not needing to be hot tanked. I would suggest that once you've got the motor out, you take the block, head, and crank to a machine shop. See if they can polish your crank, hone your cylinders, and make sure the head and top of the block are both true flat surfaces. While they are working on it, make sure they hot tank everything.

I'm not sure what your goal for this motor is, but if you're looking to make some power, this would be the time to consider boring (.010-.030 over are common bores) which would require new rings (oversized rings, never the best choice) or new rings and pistons (sized for the new bore). Also a good time to consider upgrading your rods, depending on how much power you plan on making.

I also don't know what extent you want to go to for a N/T motor. I have never worked on the 420a, so I'm not sure what it's capable of. I hear it's quite similar to the POS motor that I have in my '04 neon (which broke a timing belt with only 30k miles on it last november, the car has 140k and has been put into cold storage for now)

If you haven't gotten a shop manual, that's going to be the biggest favor that you can do for yourself. The DSM Backup CD is a good reference. Once you have a good shop manual it makes figuring things out much easier.

 

[studabaker]

SO I certainly would like more power. My immediate goals are to build the internals to withstand most any setup I decide on. This is an opportunity to bore it out however it is not necessary as I have only 20k on this engine ans there does not seem to be any damage to the cylinders. I am debating even taking the engine into the shop. I might replace oil lines and maybe hot dipping the oil pump but from what I can tell the cylinders can be cleaned by me and honed and will be fine. I am having logistics issues in my situation such as not wanting an engine hoist.

I am researching taking the crank out from the bottom. I am going to have to separate the transmission. Unbolting the clutch and fly wheel are going to need a hoist i think unless anybody knows of a way to unbolt the crank other than what ive seen on 4g63. This seems similar in that there are bolts where the clutch is... Other than that after i take the oil pump off and unbolt the fly wheel and unbolt the main bearings the crank should come out and be on its way to the shop. I will post my resolutions to this.

I have learned that I can install different bearings on a rebalanced crank. I have stripped a bolt on one of the connecting rods but I was planning on replacing the connecting rods as part of my upgrade. The pistons will probably be replaced. I think I am going to aim for 400hp and meet my goal of well over 300hp. My transmission and suspension are good and I will be able to apply that hp well.

A balanced crank to high rpms I think will help my top speed. I expect that I will need new cams when I start to boost but that will be easier to get to than removing the entire engine.

Pulled the harmonic balance pulley today. Had to drop the engine an inch to get it all the way off. A jack under the engine and removing two engine mounts except the rear one. Lowering of the engine in the bay is achieved by removing the engine mount and lowering the jack and removing the pulley and then raising the engine back up and re attaching the engine mount when done.