Custom header to run evo-style twin scroll turbos

[omegis13]

Before I even begin; please, no flaming or comments that lack any sort of engineering/experience-based support

Here in Oklahoma, Abel Racing out of Midwest City successfully bolted an Evo 8 exhaust manifold, turbo, and o2 housing to a dsm 4g63 for their shop drag car. The car ran low twelves with this setup. This required ALOT of modification to the accessories on the block, including relocating the alternator and modifying the neck on the water pump. This doesn't even include the fact that the setup required a custom intake (compressor on the driver's side = ###) and intercooler piping. Despite all this, it was one of the most kick ass thing's I've ever seen done to a DSM.

As for most dsm performance enthusiasts, what they did is not a realistic option, especially for a street car. And for running a stock evo turbo, it wouldn't even be worth it. HOWEVER, to run an upgraded evo turbo, such as maybe twin scroll 20g or better yet; a twin scoll Garrett hybrid; could the benefits of twin scroll over the stock style td05h turbine setup be worth it? Could it be worth a person's time to build a custom tubular manifold that allowed a evo style turbo and o2 housing to bolt up to a dsm?

I figure such a manifold would be designed as such:

Turbo flange would the same left/right positioning as the dsm turbo flange

Evo turbo flange would need to be turned 180* to put the compressor on the passenger side of the car.

The runners would need to be shortened as the inlet to the turbine housing is sitting closer to the block. Anything near stock would put the turbo into the radiator/fans.

So in short, with a direct comparison of ONLY the stock turbine setup and evo turbine setup (not compared to Garrett setups), would the performance benefits be worth it? As I understand, the twin scroll setup on the evo allows it to similarly sized turbos faster and still have better top end power. Cost is not a factor in this discussion; I only wish to discuss the performance aspects of the setups (I do realize how expensive this custom this custom manifold would be and how much labor and RnD would go into its development). If you MUST make a Garrett-based comparison, make it only on the basis of performance between the Garrett setup and evo setup, and keep these comparisons serious and comparison. Also, in making any comparison, keep in mind the goal I have in mind for such a setup is to build a VERY streetable car that would have good spool times for auto x, as well as good top end power for drag racing. Also, if it helps anyone here, when Abel Racing bolted the evo turbo setup to a dsm motor, the stock o2 housing lined up PERFECTLY with their bolt on-style down pipe; positioning suggests that the evo manifold is a mirror image of our stock manifold design where left/right positioning of the turbo flange is considered.

YES, I know I am insane, cannot afford this pipe dream, and everything other reason to back the question "why would you want to put an evo turbo on a dsm when you could just do a bolt on Garrett or full Garrett setup?"; so don't ask this question. This is merely an investigation into the possible benefits of the evo's twin scroll setup to our cars over more "traditional" setups. As for more exotic setups, like a direct bolton for a stock Holset turbo, you're once again looking outside the bounds of my question. I think I've given the parameters from which I want to operate within, please stay within them on this thread (if you need it in black and white; compare the twin scroll setup to our stock setup, do not factor in money/time/pain in the ass factors, or other alternative to the two setups being comared.).

Thanks,

Greg Heineken

 

[underradar92]

I tried to find them on Garrett's website, but came up empty, but it seems to me SOMEONE makes twin scroll turbo's in a conventional rotation design. Does any one else know of who/where?

 

[40oz]

I don't see why this is any more difficult than making any manifold. Get a turbine inlet flange for the 10.5 twin scroll housing. Probably have to have one made or look really hard to find someone that already makes them. Make exhaust manifold with proper cylinders paired to each opening on the flange and orient the flange however you like. BAM! Done. Make small mods to adapt the intercooler piping and exhaust, adjust oil and coolant lines.

You'll never be quick in the quarter mile with an autocross friendly turbo. If you want to hit cones, pick your turbo for that and be satisfied with whatever 1/4 mile you can wring out of it.

The new EVO 16G would probably be a good choice for autocrossing and "streetability", but a divided inlet (same as "twin scroll") T3 (from Garrett) would do just as well, and you'd have more options, not that you would necessarily need them. If you ever wanted to go bigger than a 20G, your manifold would need to be redone.

 

[omegis13]

What are twin scroll or divided inlet turbine housings? What are the benefits of using a twin scroll turbo?
A "twin scroll" or "divided inlet" means that there are two separate volutes within the turbine housing. The main reason for doing this is to isolate the pulses coming from each exhaust port and maintain more of the pulse energy from each cylinder all the way down to the turbine wheel. There are no differences between the turbine wheels used in open or single inlet turbines compared to those used in twin or divided inlet turbines.

Generally speaking, a divided inlet turbine setup will respond faster and produce boost quicker than single or open design of the same nozzle area, of course this is dependent upon proper execution. The simple fact that a divided housing is used does not guarantee these results.

Directly off of Forced Performances site.
http://www.forcedperformance.net/faq.aspx

As for the divided T3 housings, I have yet to see one. I have seen divided T04 out there though. Anyone have a link for the divided T3 housings? That may be a bit less complicated than the evo housing for as T3-based manifolds already exist. At the very least, I could have a look at a manifold for one of these turbos to get an idea of what I would have to do.

Thanks,

Greg Heineken

 

[hostile]

So what your saying is you want a 20g turbo? Really that turbo is small enough where the twin scroll isn't going to make or break you.

20g's have gone much faster than low 12's too.

A 20g will bolt on and work much better than anything you can come up with at a similar price.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

So what your saying is you want a 20g turbo? Really that turbo is small enough where the twin scroll isn't going to make or break you.

20g's have gone much faster than low 12's too.

A 20g will bolt on and work much better than anything you can come up with at a similar price.

Very true. Why go through all the hassle to limit yourself to 1 type of turbocharger? Go nab yourself a garrett T3 manifold and a 50 trim so that later on, if you want more, you can throw on a GT35R or T67.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Greg,

The only benefits of a twin scroll are spool time and elimination of cross cylinder contamination/reversion (if a proper manifold is used). Running a twin scroll on a small turbo seems pointless to me, unless you're in Mitsu's marketing department and have a deathly fear of the word "lag". It isn't worth the hastle for a couple hundred RPM better spool, unless you're a hardcore autocrosser or something.

Running a twin scroll large turbo makes plently of sense. But you also don't need to convert to a counter rotation setup to do this. Many very large normal rotation turbos are available with divided housings. If you want to run one of these, its just a matter of having someone make you a manifold that's designed to take advantage of the divided housing.

http://www.turbocharged.com/catalog/thousing.html

And just IMO, the Evo MR I drove had horrible lag. In spite of what the brochure said about the twin scroll delivering nearly lag free performance... yea right.

Once again, this is EXACTLY the kind of commentary I was trying to avoid. If you're going to give such open ended opinions, AT LEAST give something to back them up.

Thanks,

Greg Heineken

EVO III IS THE SHIZAT YO!!!

Retards are frustrating huh?

 

[MyBeatGSX]

Just another thought.... why not just mount the turbo on the manifold backwards and clock the compressor to aim in the right direction? Yea its going to stick out a lot, but the modifications to make it fit won't be nearly as bad as having the compression and DP on the wrong sides of the engine bay.

We always mounted normal rotation turbos with the compressor on the drivers side. So I don't see why you couldn't mount a counter rotation turbo with the compessor on the passanger side either...

 

[omegis13]

Greg,

The only benefits of a twin scroll are spool time and elimination of cross cylinder contamination/reversion (if a proper manifold is used). Running a twin scroll on a small turbo seems pointless to me, unless you're in Mitsu's marketing department and have a deathly fear of the word "lag". It isn't worth the hastle for a couple hundred RPM better spool, unless you're a hardcore autocrosser or something.

Running a twin scroll large turbo makes plently of sense. But you also don't need to convert to a counter rotation setup to do this. Many very large normal rotation turbos are available with divided housings. If you want to run one of these, its just a matter of having someone make you a manifold that's designed to take advantage of the divided housing.

http://www.turbocharged.com/catalog/thousing.html

And just IMO, the Evo MR I drove had horrible lag. In spite of what the brochure said about the twin scroll delivering nearly lag free performance... yea right.

EVO III IS THE SHIZAT YO!!!

Retards are frustrating huh?

The only reason I mentioned the twin scroll 20g is because it is already on the market and I knew where to find it. I'm almost positive someone has developed a bolt on Garrett turbo setup for evo's that uses their turbo flange, which is what I would really be after; something larger than a 50 trim. Hell, if it were out there, a twin scroll Garrett GT turbo would be something to consider as well. Someone in this thread had mentioned divided T3 housings. I've never seen or heard of them. Can anyone post a link?

Thanks,

Greg Heineken

 

[oztofrdm]

Hell, if it were out there, a twin scroll Garrett GT turbo would be something to consider as well. Someone in this thread had mentioned divided T3 housings. I've never seen or heard of them. Can anyone post a link

I honsetly dont see the point to spending all this money just for a twin scroll setup because T3/T4 is the way to go but i guess ill help
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/m...OD&Product_Code=GRT-TBO-024&Category_Code=GRT

And the divided T3 housing are here
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/m...OD&Product_Code=GRT-TBO-005&Category_Code=GRT

 

[omegis13]

HAHA! We're making progress. As for a twin scroll T3 setup, who makes manifolds for them? If a custom one had to be built, how much could I expect the cost to be (I'm not sure how much different it would have to be from most tubular T3 manifolds aside from the turbo flange)?

Thanks

Greg Heineken

 

[nanokpsi]

It seems like your just trying to reinvent the wheel here. A divided manifold is more different than just the flange as the correct runners have to be paired together. Otherwise there is no point. Since you want it on a t3, it's also probably a small turbo, in which case you could max it out in an undivided housing. Therefore, you'd be going through all of this (custom turbine housig and custom ex mani) for a theoretical spool advantage (on a small turbo anyways).

Given that, anyhitng is possible with the right funds.

 

[omegis13]

I do realize that a divided turbine housing will require the runners to be run correctly (1 and 3, 2 and 4 if I remember right) As for turbo size, possibly something along the size of a GT3076R (I had previously been unaware of the twin scroll T3 housings) on a 2.3 liter. I was hoping to keep spool below 4000 rpm's, maybe around 3500 to keep the turbo very streetable (considering I won't have another 5000+ rpm's of effective power band like a 2.0 liter may). So am I trying to reinvent the wheel? Probably a bit. The real question is though, why did the wheel never come to building a twin scroll setup for our cars? Could it be because 75% of performance enthusiasts with our vehicles focus on drag racing? I'm looking to build a primarily street driven car good for auto cross and MAYBE the oassional drag race, in which case if I can keep up with a C6 Vette, I'd be more than happy. Before anyone even decides to suggest that I just stick with a smaller turbo, let me make this clear; I do not feel that a 16g, or possibly even a 20g is going to be enough power for me. Yes, I plan on over compensating driver ability with equipment, but let's not get into that. Simply put, I did not create this thread for everyone to sit here and question my reasons, knowledge, or practicality. I created it to look into other options for our cars. Let's keep the focus on that, and not on questioning my direction.

Thanks,

Greg Heineken

 

[underradar92]

No worries, Greg, I'm interested in this not for streetability reasons, but for efficiency reasons. Does a twin scroll or divided housing give up any high rpm flow? With MOST things, this trade off exists, I'm curious if this is a rare "free lunch".

 

[nanokpsi]

No worries, Greg, I'm interested in this not for streetability reasons, but for efficiency reasons. Does a twin scroll or divided housing give up any high rpm flow? With MOST things, this trade off exists, I'm curious if this is a rare "free lunch".

I guess that depends on how the housing is designed. I have read numerous places where the divided housings actually flow like smaller undivided housigns, therefore there would be some upperend loss. That probably wouldn't matter in this case except for pump gas power (as it sure isn't difficult to max out a 3076 compressor with a stroker and c16).

 

[MyBeatGSX]

I did not create this thread for everyone to sit here and question my reasons, knowledge, or practicality. I created it to look into other options for our cars. Let's keep the focus on that, and not on questioning my direction.

I think that was a direct quote of myself in another topic. Other options? Do you mean doing it some way other than what we've doing for the past 10 years? You're out of your mind.


Yes the housings do give up flow compared to an undivided of the same size. The solution? Get a bigger one. The problem? You just lost 90% of your spool time advantage.

I think you guys are overlooking the other large benefit, elimination of reversion/cross cylinder contamination on any size housing. This is especially true with small-mid size housings that have lots of back pressure. Spool and flow aside, this benefit is across the board.

But can I ask why everyone is still bringing up Evos? You don't need a special manifold or a setup for a counter rotating turbo to run a standard rotation divided housing... I think the Evo idea is out.

And Greg, I was serious in that PM. My friend owns that shop and they do very good work. If you have enough people interested, they will make them or do a one off if you feel you don't mind paying for the mock up time.

 

[omegis13]

I'm DEFINITELY interested, especially if the price for a dsm manifold would be similar to the prices for one of their honduh manifolds. Just need to get the funding together. Bonus check for this month looks good, and with the nature of my job, it will only get better as xmas gets closer . I'll definitely get in contact with them in the next couple of weeks. I'll send them pics of DN peformance's evo manifold for reference, although a twin scoll t3 sounds much more appealing

Greg Heineken

 

[PRESSURIZED]

Once again, this is EXACTLY the kind of commentary I was trying to avoid. If you're going to give such open ended opinions, AT LEAST give something to back them up.

Thanks,

Greg Heineken

I apologize for raining on your parade (or track day ) However;

As far as "backing it up" it's self explanatary. Sounds like you want 16g spool with 60-1 pull.

Not gonna happen, unless you build a stroker and even then I doubt it would hit full boost at 3000rpm.


Just get a 50 Trim man, a Ball bearing one. I dont know why people think you cant "smoke a vette" with a 50 trim.

Get some nitrous...but this whole reincartion of a EVO 8/ DSM hybrid is just plain ###.

Sorry.

 

[DSMunknown]

To the OP, it would be great if you could post pictures when this is completed. Without something visual this thread will ultimately seem to be lacking something very important.

 

[omegis13]

I apologize for raining on your parade (or track day ) However;

As far as "backing it up" it's self explanatary. Sounds like you want 16g spool with 60-1 pull.

Not gonna happen, unless you build a stroker and even then I doubt it would hit full boost at 3000rpm.


Just get a 50 Trim man, a Ball bearing one. I dont know why people think you cant "smoke a vette" with a 50 trim.

Get some nitrous...but this whole reincartion of a EVO 8/ DSM hybrid is just plain ###.

Sorry.

1) Yes, this is planned for a stoker motor (which is on a stand in my closet ).

2) I realize a 50 trim can be good enough for "smoking 'Vettes", however I feel that there may be other options out there; this thread was started to look into exploiting those options.

3) The thread has shifted paradigms a bit; I did not realize that twin scroll T3 turbos (with a Garrett twin scroll housing) existed. I think there are possibilities for this turbo with our cars that have not been looked into, but considering the age of the technology, probably should have been quite some time ago. My concern was never simply with getting an Evo turbo alone on our car, just a twin scroll unit, whatever the manufacturer.

4) As for nitrous, it's not out of the question either. I have a wet kit from my old integra in my parent's attic. Only problem with it would be that it would be useless in auto x, or at least I'd be to scared to use it.

Thanks,

Greg Heineken

 

[GVR4592]

So are you still planning on using an Evo turbo? I skipped alot of the bullshit in the middle because I didn't feel like reading a dozen "get a 50 trim" responses.

My buddy works in a fab shop and MIGHT be able to make a flange like this. I'll have to run it by him and see what he says.

 

[GVR4592]

And just IMO, the Evo MR I drove had horrible lag. In spite of what the brochure said about the twin scroll delivering nearly lag free performance... yea right.

What do you consider horrible lag?

 

[omegis13]

So are you still planning on using an Evo turbo? I skipped alot of the bullshit in the middle because I didn't feel like reading a dozen "get a 50 trim" responses.

My buddy works in a fab shop and MIGHT be able to make a flange like this. I'll have to run it by him and see what he says.

Because the option of twin scroll T3 has been brought to my knowledge, I'm leaning more towards that; just offers more options in the long run.

Thanks,

Greg Heineken

 

[silvah_gsx]

What do you consider horrible lag?

06 Evo RS spools pretty slowly (and softly)...boost guage isn't closing on 20 until 3500 - 3600 rpm.

 

[awdwhip]

so what happened to this twin scroll set-up? Actually, i was thinking that maybe you should combine a twin scroll turbine housing with and HTA wheel from FP. Is that possible? Just my .02