Curious..NO FMIC and more alcohol? doable on a DD car?

[turboglenn]

Due to the extreme heat we get in the summer here causing FMIC's to keep you from running your AC so you don't overheat. So I've been thinking to get my AC back, i want to eliminate my FMIC (at least to test) and make a VERY short route IC pipe from the turbo outlet to the elbow with nothing but a BOV and 2 alky nozzles in it , spraying a rough equivalent to 30% of total fuel flow even at 100% duty cycle.

In theory, the turbo doesn't create huge amounts of heat when it's not compressing air, so daily non boost driving shouldn't change much. And when you're in boost you have alky/water mix coming on at 5-8 psi and in the best case being progressively fed up to a boost level 4-5 pounds below max boost to get the larger volume moving earlier to aid in cooling.

If what's in the alcohol WiKi is correct, then i should be able to run high boost, high timing and leaner AFR's with enough water and alcohol. And since alcohol can cool air better than any intercooler (according to the WiKi) And if that's true, I don't even see how an IC should even be needed with a dedicated alcohol system, and it (the alky system) wouldn't even be pumping too crazy of an amount in so it should be safe as well.

So, anyone got any suggestions or experiences with this? I also think this could be beneficiary in building boost slightly faster since you would eliminate a large volume of the intake tract, therefor requiring less air volume to build the same amount of boost pressure since it's measured in pounds per square inches scale


One last thing I've wondered about is, if your IAT sensor is in the TB elbow (like mine is) and you have at least one alky nozzle spraying right before it, are you getting an accurate reading of airflow or could the water sticking to the sensor make it read erroneously? Or would it be atomized to the point that under high airspeeds when under WOT throttle that it wouldn't stick to anything in it's way?


Again, suggestions, thoughts or any advice in the flaws of my theory are welcome. lets discuss!

 

[Devilsown]

Becarefull what you read on the wiki. Found many things that are b.s. so i edited it and the next day it was back.

yes, methanol/water is able to cool the air intake track better than an intercooler is capable of. I have seen quite a few or our users that are capable of having lower than amb temps. You just can't do that with an ic.

With your iat its showing what the temps are at that point. But the mixture will still cool more as it's going thur the rest of your intake track and into your cylinders.

 

[turboglenn]

Thanks, and i have to say excellent system, i love it.. Was it the timing, AFR and boost levels talked about that you believe to be untrue?

BTW... did you get my AIM messeges that i sent you offline that day? let me know

 

[Devilsown]

That part i would say is correct. I have not read it lattly. There was a bunch of stuff in the artical about corrosiveness of methanol injeciton.

Glade you like it.

I must have missed it. I run from computer to computer and my aim on my phone. So if i don't respond back then its probley poped up on a computer i am not at the moment. Please resend.

 

[turboglenn]

Cool, i'll catch you on sometime today hopefully and resend the messeges. I'm off to lunch for a while, but i'll be back in a bit.

 

[twack]

This sounds like something te non turbo guys would do. Ive heard a few of them run no intercooler

 

[turboglenn]

This sounds like something te non turbo guys would do. Ive heard a few of them run no intercooler

That's another reason that makes me believe it should work. I have also seen a LOT of non intercooled setups. and alcohol is supposed to be able to bring teh temperatures lower than ambient, and that's somethign no IC is going to do. I've seen close to ambient temps on large FMIC when only doing a few pulls in the cold weather. I can't wait to test this theory, but i will sure as hell ahve my J&S in by then

 

[twack]

Might wan to look into e85 i know a local guy who ran e85 with no intercooler on his evo and had higher intake temps but nothing outrageous

 

[bastarddsm]

if i remeber correctly shep dosn't have an intercooler on his car.

 

[gsxtasy]

if i remeber correctly shep dosn't have an intercooler on his car.

Because Shep runs straight methanol. Little different than alky injection + gas.

 

[turboglenn]

I'm definitely not going to go E85 as long as i live in Nebraska. It would be nice for our summers since we regularly see 100* through most of it. But in our winters here, i don't even want to know about the cold start issues I'd have with e85. I have enough issues now that my car isn't garage kept everyday like it has been it's whole life. One more year and we'll have a 3 car garage again, but for now I'm stuck with one and the motorcycles get that.


Still looking for input or anyone who has done this succesfully.

 

[twack]

its not that bad. Im in MN and i use e85. cold starting aint that bad, unless its in public hahaha. What are your present mods or te mods that you plan to use on this setup

 

[turboglenn]

It's all in my profile, just using the alcohol to extract the maximum performance from the setup on pump gas.

I figured if i could eliminate the FMIC i could have a car that's even friendlier as a daily driver.

Well, i'm going to do it. I'm going to start testing it as soon as i get some bends in from J.C. whitney.

Stay tuned for the results, give me about 2 weeks to thoroughly test it and i will draw some conclusions and report.

 

[Spades]

Im very interested in seeing these results. I like to use my AC as well when temps go over 90+ degrees around here, but it is my coolant temps that im concerned about. I have a single stage water /meth kit with an FMIC and I too am interested in removing the fmic in favor of cooler water temps. My plan was to go with a Dejon Super SMIC along with my meth kit, and I honestly think spraying the meth offers more than enough cooling when setup properly. When I asked a similar question sometime last year, most people disagreed with my thinking, and so I did not proceed with the plan. Now when you say you are removing your fmic, are you meaning no IC at all or reverting back to an SMIC and spraying meth? Also when you do your comparison, how about comparing your water temps as well while youre at it?

 

[twack]

Well i took a look at your mods and its not near anything stock, so i dont know how this will work out. Your going to be putting alot of heat in the engine. Maybe it would work in the winter but not in the middle of summer (my opinion). If it were a stock setup not being beat to piss was what I had in mind. If you want to make power on this setup I strongly urge you to look at e85.

 

[turboglenn]

Spades, i'll keep you up to date on everything, I don't plan on using any IC at all for this test. I ahve tons of data logs from years and years of tuning my car that i can use for air and water temp comparison, and even some fresh ones from the dyno.

Twack, i think it'll be fine, with the larger turbo and everything i'm seeing WAY lower temps in teh intake already than i ever did back when i was just on a 16g and a FMIC with 550's and an SAFC. The more mods i've done that free things up the cooler and smoother the motor has ran untill i got rid of the main factory fan and my car couldn't use the AC in summer with out over heating. Now i have that fan back in. A newer IC pipe setup(less restrictive) and will be trying the no IC at all just for the purpose of knowing first hand and ending all speculation. I think you'll be surprised, i know i hope to be

 

[rrussell]

Sound like a great test!!!

I have some logs with my Devils Own system, but I need to get my laptop fix to retrieve the logs.

But going by memory it was a significant difference.

My plans are to start running E85 and retain the stock SMIC. But this might change after reading this post.

 

[gixrman]

This will be interesting to see. I have seen a temp drop(W/I) when logging my IAT with link.

 

[turboglenn]

Well, today along with my J&S, We also got (or are in the process of getting) 4-6'' of snow *&$&^#@%@!!!!!!!!!!!

Everything is set except for getting the pipe to build the FMIC elimination tube to go from the turbo directly to the intake elbow.

Delayed for now, will update as soon as i can drive my car on the steets and not have them be wet or covered in snow. I'm very excited about this. I mixed my own meth/water mix last night to a tune of 53% water 47% methanol with a drop of Red Dye just to give it color so that it isn't mistaken for anything else around the house. I am ordering a "Y" fitting and a few extra nozzles today to make sure i have enough parts to test this in a couple different manners of nozzle arrangement

 

[green92gsx]

I don't think you'll achieve the results your looking for with this test. In order to be able to cool the air charge enough to not need a heat exchanger you will need to run straight methanol and alot of it.

Removing the intercooler on e-85 would be a step in the wrong direction performance wise.

In a daily driver you would have to run a separate fuel system with rail,pump,and cell for the methanol triggered by a pressure switch on boost. Switching from pump gas to pure meth.

 

[rrussell]

Removing the intercooler on e-85 would be a step in the wrong direction performance wise.

Your right.

My plans are to start running E85 and retain the stock SMIC. But this might change after reading this post.

I should of said my plans are to run an air to water inter-cooler while running E85.

But I think it will be over kill and my plans will change if his outcome is good. Then I will keep the stock SMIC and run E85. my bad

 

[matthewdesigns]

Definitely interested in how this goes. Good luck!

 

[turboglenn]

Well, the J&S is mounted, and very cleanly i might add All i have left to do is get the knock sensor bolted in the block and i'm halfway done with the test pipe, i just need to get one more bend, weld up the BOV flange for my Blitx spare BOV, and then add the 2 nozzles to it and i can begine testing.

Just waiting on the weather to break now.

i'm not claimingto be "on to anything" or have the next greatest thing, i just like to test things and see what canbe done and sometimes the results are rather good. Hopefully these are!!

 

[Defiant]

Make sure you come back and tell us in detail why the world uses intercoolers instead of aerosol cooling. You will know, and all too-well.

 

[turboglenn]

Make sure you come back and tell us in detail why the world uses intercoolers instead of aerosol cooling. You will know, and all too-well.

That's exactly what I'm going to find out. Don't be so pessimistic (sp?) just because all the other lemurs jump off the cliff does that mean you or i are pre-disposed to do the same? not as long as we have the power of individual thought. Plus you see, i have J&S on my side I've personally witnessed the power of this module when the wastegate vacuum line popped off of a turbo miata i built and the J&S saved it repeatedly. and Many automotive manufacturers have sent non-intercooled turbo cars off the show room with the notion that it should last 100k miles no matter how stupid the owner is. It's all programmed in the ECU to save the motor, and my ecu although stand alone has the same features dialed in. if my intake temps get too high, it pulls timing. If i over boost, i go pig rich and pull timing. Now i have a box that will pull timing with knock up to 20*...i think I'll be fine and able to drive home to post the data logs.


That's why i have waited on the arrival of this unit before starting this test. I may see higher intake temps, but I'm not scared for the motors safety as long as I've got this module.

But, yesterday we got 6 inches of snow , so i have to wait for that to be cleaned up before i can even start to test this under load.