Copper in Oilpan

[tsunari]

So the 97 GST I've had for 4 years or so is motor-less at the moment and sleeping in the garage . . . in the mean time, I decided to pick up a 92 GSX with an EVOIII 16g, FMIC, motor with 5k on it (2g pistons, 1g rods), etc . . . fairly cheap.

It has a few problems:

Power steering leaks at the rack
Oil pan leaks everywhere
Builds boost, but wont go anywhere (no power)

but anyways . . .

After work today, I decided to pull the pan and re-seal it (need to change the oil anyways . . . plus I hate putting in a quart of oil every 3-4 days).

First thing I find is one of the bolts holding the oil pickup tube is missing (hmmm . . .wonder where that went . . .) and the pickup tube screen is kind of banged up (but the pan is too).

Look inside the oil pan and yup- there's the bolt (must not have torqued it down properly). So then I wipe out the inside of the pan with a rag and find a bunch of lovely copper!!!


So the question is . . . what would be the culprit? Turbo, main bearings, rod bearings, thrust bearing?

Didn't really see much silver dust/material in the oil, typical of initial bearing failure . . . but this could have been going on for some time I suppose.

 

[92awddsm]

So the 97 GST I've had for 4 years or so is motor-less at the moment and sleeping in the garage . . . in the mean time, I decided to pick up a 92 GSX with an EVOIII 16g, FMIC, motor with 5k on it (2g pistons, 1g rods), etc . . . fairly cheap.

It has a few problems:

Power steering leaks at the rack
Oil pan leaks everywhere
Builds boost, but wont go anywhere (no power)

but anyways . . .

After work today, I decided to pull the pan and re-seal it (need to change the oil anyways . . . plus I hate putting in a quart of oil every 3-4 days).

First thing I find is one of the bolts holding the oil pickup tube is missing (hmmm . . .wonder where that went . . .) and the pickup tube screen is kind of banged up (but the pan is too).

Look inside the oil pan and yup- there's the bolt (must not have torqued it down properly). So then I wipe out the inside of the pan with a rag and find a bunch of lovely copper!!!


So the question is . . . what would be the culprit? Turbo, main bearings, rod bearings, thrust bearing?

Didn't really see much silver dust/material in the oil, typical of initial bearing failure . . . but this could have been going on for some time I suppose.

Has the bs been removed from the engine? It is possible that you found the remains of a rear bs bearing that went south once upon a time. If it was a rod or main bearing, you would definately hear a knock from that. If the bearings had been replaced before you got it, Im sure the mechanic would have wiped the remains from the pan. If it was a thrust bearing, the crank would have noticable end play.

That is not from the turbo so you can rule that out. Turbo bearings will settle in the pan as larger chunks of brass, not copper flakes.


Time you finally got a 1g. I ran across a possible lead on a 2g turbo so I am going to check it out next week. All goes well, I will get it for trade on a tune up and tb change on a 96 civic ex.

 

[tsunari]

Hey Keith . . . yeah, apparently this guy rebuilt the motor about 5k+ miles ago and the balance shafts were definitely removed. So I'm assuming there would be new bearings in there.

I checked the shaft play on the turbo a couple of weekends ago and it seemed to be pretty much brand new, not a whole lot of shaft play (axial or radial) at all and the compressor wheel spun fairly free.

Can't say I really hear anything knocking (although I never HAVE heard one of these motors knock), but I'm sure I'd notice it if it were happening. The engine actually runs pretty darn smooth once it's warmed up.

Guess I could try and check the thrust play tomorrow with some feeler gauges . . . and perhaps pull a rod cap off? Not too sure how to get the main caps off . . .

A tune-up and TB change for a turbo 2g? heheh . . .dang- quite a deal

Oh . . . how could I tell if those flakes are copper or brass ? Guess brass is a bit more yellow?

 

[92awddsm]

Oh . . . how could I tell if those flakes are copper or brass ? Guess brass is a bit more yellow?

Brass is less malleable than copper. It wont flatten and flake like copper will. It will usually just be chunks. And yes, it will be more yellow.

A tune-up and TB change for a turbo 2g? heheh . . .dang- quite a deal

I have some how ended up doing some side work for a man that owns a towing/recovery business. He came by to pick up his sons civic and told me he has a 92 eclipse and a 95 eclipse. Well, his other son has a 96 n/t with a blown engine and he was looking for a replacement but once he picked up the 95, he found that the engine was reverse of the one in his sons car. That means that it is a 4g63 and only available in turbo fashion in the 2g. I have yet to see the car but his 3rd son needs some work done to his 96 civic so he said he would work with me if he has something on his lot that I want. There is only one stipulation. He will get me the title but he also has no keeys so I have to deal with that. Just so happens that another friend of mine is a locksmith. Im hoping that the car isnt in too bad of shape and possibly awd.

 

[tsunari]

awesome man- hope it works out

So what all do you think I should check before buttoning the pan back up tomorrow?

 

[toybreaker]

I had a similiar experience with my 90 gsx.

I'll share the whole sordid saga if you like, but the short version is, I've seen that scenerio before.

There's a lot of people who have rebuilt a small block or a lawnmower or something. So, being experts, , they tear into a 4g63t. And, after the elleventeeth beer, they just sort of forget where the thrust bearing goes.

I've seen several variations, but the one I liked the best was on the #1 main journal.

This didn't work out so well for the thrust bearing faces, as the #1 main journal on the crank is not machined on the thrust surface. Over a few hundred miles, the action of pushing in the clutch loaded the crank's non machined face against the thrust bearing face. This went thru the outer silver layer quickly, and then started to flake off big chunks of the copper layer. Eventually, it wore enough away that the thrust face sheared off the bearing. I became aware of this when the clutch pedal went to the floor and stuck...After pulling the pedal up, I drove it back to the shop, thinking I had a clutch/hydraulic issue. The clutch seemed to work fine, it just felt a little funny~ish, and there was this squeek with the clutch pedal in. I had my wife work the clutch a few times while I kind of looked around. I happened to look down at the crank, and it was moving ~1/8 of an inch in and out as she cycled the pedal.

When I dropped the pan, I saw flakes very similiar to your picture.

I sure hope you're not looking at the same kind of creatively assembled clusterfubarification.

It cost me $457 into the swear jar...

The thrust bearing should be on the center main journal. When you pull the cap, inspect what will *hopefully* be the thrust bearing. If it's not there, try the ends of the crank next. The end caps are paired together with a little bridge, and will come off together. Please, only take one cap (or end pair) off at a time. You'll have a hard time getting it back together if the crank moves around much.

It's pretty hard to get that much copper from a bearing and not have it knock audibally/spin, so that's my best guess as to where it came from, without having the engine in front of me.

The only other way I can see that happening is the poor engine shredded a main/rod or a balance shaft bearing , and was "repaired"by a cheese ball, low rent, hack and dasher, and not cleaned well

Look for discoloration/darkness around the rod big ends, the crank journals, and the block webbs at the main journal and balance shaft bores.

Good luck, and please let us know what you find.
John

 

[tsunari]

wow . . . that's quite a story! I'm going to head out right now and start taking the caps off and inspect the bearings. From what I remember yesterday, I do believe the thrust bearing was in it's proper place.

Found out a little more on the background of this motor last night as well . . . turns out that yes it is a fresh build and has roughly 6k miles on it, but it was done like six (6) years ago and then just sat around for like three (3) years before anything was ever done with it.

I'm wondering/suspecting this thing may have been fired-up dry for the first time after sitting around for so long

Keep the ideas coming . . . will definitely report back with any findings

 

[toybreaker]

That's not even the funny part...


Could also have acid damage to the bearings, if it was fired up, and ran, and then sat for a long period of time with old oil in the pan. I would be sure to inspect all of the bearings. It's possible that one or more of them has started to come apart.

I'm always somewhat scared of other peoples work. (especially if they can't seal an oil pan )...

Edit; Little more awake now...

One thing that kind of scares me is that the motor has been run with bits and pieces in the pan, and some of it was picked up by the pump. The screen on the pick up will block most of it, but, some will have gone thru the pump. The filter will catch most of the rest, but on a cold motor, the pressure relief will bypass some crap into the motor, (and may be stuck open).

I've seen really fine copper particles come out of the lifters during the clean up process..(the oil coming out of them had a copperish tint to it), please clean them as per the v-faq. (or just replace them, if they're really contaminated)

And, the oil squirter check valves should be removed and cleaned, as they probably also got a dose of fine particles.

If you still have the oil filter that was on the motor, it would be interesting to cut it open and inspect the filter media. There's a whole bunch of the outer silver layer that had to be worn off to get to the copper layer, and that stuff had to go somewhere. I didn't see very much silver in the pan from your picture...just some really big flakes of copper. If they are from the present set-up, at least one of the bearings is totally trashed. If there's not much silver in the filter, that indicates the damage is from at least one oil change previous, and may mean it's just poor clean up from a previously fragged bearing....

Also, the sandwich cooler will probably be loaded up with crap...I would just toss it, and install one from a non-trashed motor. (or, alternatively, install the 90 air/oil cooler setup)

Good luck, I hope this all turns out okay for you!

 

[tsunari]

So here's what I found:

*Checked the thrust bearing clearance and it is a bit on the loose side, but still within stock specs

*Pulled the thrust bearing and it looks BRAND new . . . very little wear on the silver protective coating

*Checked the clearance on all of the rods and they are within spec

*Pulled the #4 rod bearing and it too is practically brand new (definitely looks like something from a motor with ~5k miles on it

Still have the old oil filter lyin around . . . maybe i'll go dig it out of the trash and tear it apart. Looks like I may be lucky and whoever put this thing together just didn't think to clean out the oil pan.

Oh! And as for why the oil pan wasn't sealing . . . instead of being sealed with a continuous bead of RTV, it had an actual gasket - must be one of those Autozone gasket kits

Going to buy some rare earth magnets to stick on the end of my drain plugs and see if I come up with any extra surprises between now and the next oil change.


On a side-note, I think I figured out why this thing makes absolutely NO power and falls on its face when I try and go WOT . . . tried a boost leak test today, and I couldn't build any boost. Turns out the Cyclone intake manifold (guess it's in 2 or 3 pieces) isn't exactly completely sealed. I can actually grab the top of it, jerk up, and it moves

So I'm getting some new gaskets from rockville mitsu this week and slapping on a 1g manifold- hopefully that'll do it