Copper flakes in oil pan. Turbo or bearing

[EagleTalonTim]

Ok, here is the deal. I was driving to work the next day after I finished rebuilding my transmission and I downshifted into third gear (Auto Tranny with shift box) when I noticed a hum sound begin. Worried, I went to check the transmission fluid and everything to see what could be the problem. I even revved the engine a few times in neutral to see if it was still audible. I still could hear it but it was not coming from the tranny that I could tell. Since I was at work, i could not thoroughly check things out so I made the hour trip back home. The hum stayed the same but I did notice a slight vibration when accelerating very little. When I got home, I check all my fluids and as soon as I pulled my oil stick out, smoke began coming out of the tube. It was not alot, but it was visible. I did not drive hard either. After seeing that, I pulled my oil pan to see what the problem was. Once I got the pan out, I found 2 VERY small pieces of metal....Aluminum and about an 1/8" wide and 1/32" thick (They were both very porous) and there was a noticeable but small amount of copper flakes in the very bottom of the oil pan. I also found that one of my torque converter bolts was loose. I think that could have been my hum/vibration problem.

After doing some research, I found that it could be my bearings or something in my turbo as well. I have never tore apart a turbo so I have no idea what bearings they use. The reason for this thread is because I want to know someone's opinion or expert advice on if this could be my turbo or my bottom end bearings. I have recently checked shaft play in my turbo and there is about 1/16" to 1/8" in/out play which I know is not good at all. No side to side play though. Could the turbo be where the shavings are coming from or did the vibration cause a bearing to possible spin? To better explain the hum, it sounded like a very small exhaust leak. No clunking or metal hitting metal...just a soft hum.

 

[shinzon]

Does the turbo have any shaft play?

Unfortunately, you're most likely in the early stages of engine bearing disintegration.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

Yes, the turbo has some in/out play. About 1/16" to 1/8" movement. The motor I have in my car now only has about 60k miles on it. Many of those miles are rough though. I got it from a JDM dealer. It has the cyclone intake and everything on it. I do my regular tune up and what not's as I should so this has me wondering if i should go ahead and put new bearings in and see if that is my problem or if the turbo is my problem. It is an EVO III 16g I got from someone on here used. It has been on my car for a little over a year now.

 

[seattleshawn]

Does the turbo have any shaft play?

Unfortunately, you're most likely in the early stages of engine bearing disintegration.

Yep thats my guess too. Sounds like what I found in my engine and I had spun #3 bearing. If i were you I would start pulling bearing caps.

 

[DSMified92]

well if you spun a bearing you dont need to just put bearings in it. you need to have the rods line bored to mae sure there not ovaled or anything and go ahead and put new rings and arp rod bolts. basically just redo your short block.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

I will pull the rod caps and main's when I get home from work today. The engine is not out of the car so I am just trying to diagnose my problem at the moment.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

I was able to get all my main bearings pulled and my #4 rod cap pulled. All the main bearings looked good. The rod bearing was covered in the copper flakes. I will finish pulling the rest of the rod caps tomorrow. It does not appear that the bearing was spun though. The crank looks in great shape. No nicks or burrs or evidence of anything eating into the metal. I have pictures if anyone needs me to upload them.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

It turns out that #4 rod was the only one that had copper on it and the bearing had like a gray chard look. Now...here is my question. What would cause the bearing to start failing like that and what can I do to fix this? I am going to order some main and rod bearings but I don't want to put them in and have to do the same thing a few months down the road. Any input is appreciated!

 

[Red97Eclipseboy]

Pretty sure the thrust bearing is copper.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

The thrust bearing looked to be in great shape though. The only ones that looked to have any wear are all the rob bearings. I am wondering what would cause them to fail like that so I don't have to do this in a few months down the road.

 

[dsm-onster]

Get the crank measured. And while you're at it just go ahead and line hone the number 4 rod while it is out of the car. There COULD have been enough heat to alter the shape of the big end. You'll at least need to measure it. If all the clearances are in spec, you need to look at oil flow to the bearing.

 

[EagleTalonTim]

Get the crank measured. And while you're at it just go ahead and line hone the number 4 rod while it is out of the car. There COULD have been enough heat to alter the shape of the big end. You'll at least need to measure it. If all the clearances are in spec, you need to look at oil flow to the bearing.

I did mic all the rod areas on the crank and they were spot on exact. They were not oval or anything. When I pulled the bearings, the small holes that allow oil to pass were actually clogged up with the copper flakes. The question is.....how did the copper flakes start showing up? I am tempted to just get an oil pump with the balance shafts removed, a new timing belt kit, and new bearings and be done with it. I will blow out all the oil journals and reassemble everything with the STP oil treatment stuff I have used in the past on previous motor rebuilds. The crank is in perfect condition so I feel I caught the problem just in time before I did spin a bearing.

 

[ziggo0]

Were you able to check for roundness?

 

[EagleTalonTim]

Yep, everything was good. The crank was in pristine condition. Would putting a new oil pump, bearings, and new timing belt kit just be a band aid or would that solve my problem?

 

[ziggo0]

Well, if your crank is round and checks out on the mic there is no reason not to re-use it - especially according to the books. Here is a little story that will make you more confident in your choice to re-use it.

I had a bad sealing oil pan, so after 3 rtv tries I used form-a-gasket which failed miserably. A week after trying it out I was having little to no oil pressure on a fresh rebuild, go figure I didn't notice until I started hearing knocking. Turns out to be rod knock. Pulled the pan and rod caps. Found 2 bearings in abused but usable condition. The other 2 were worn down to the copper (ACL Tri Metal thank god) and were on the edge of spinning around. I removed all the bearings and pushed the pistons up (Mind you this is in below zero weather with the engine in the car, no lift!) used 1000grit sand paper/tranny fluid and a shoe lace to equally sand/polish down each journal so they don't go out of round from cleaning up the marks on the crankshaft. None of the scores caught my finger nail, however I could feel they were there. Instead of having to pull the engine/crank and pay for a machine shop to polish the crank I read up on that old method of cleaning up the journals. Keep in mind this crank was already turned .25mm under. I replaced the bearings with new ones and the engine is currently running great 3k miles later.

Sorry I lied, that was a long story.



As long as the rods big end checks out, I say put it back together with fresh bearings. Make sure to plasti-gauge everything and torque everything to spec. Something that has me curious, you found the oil valley blocked for rod 4 that spun....take an air compressor to the oil valleys in the block/crank and flush them out with some brake clean. Good call on the fresh oil pump too.