Coil on Plug how to

[Defiant]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17954&highlight=buschur+COP

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by Groomz
http://www.taboospeedshop.com/ignition.htm

Congratulations, a link to a page showing how the stock ignition works.

Besides the obvious benefit to yourself if you read it, I fail to see how that will benefit us?

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by Rsktakr
read the 3rd and 4th pargraphs under that diagram on that link up there

I'm not sure if you were talking to me there? I already know all that, but thanks.

........mine NEVER worked.. not even a missfire.. i built the harness just like hal did and he ended up w/ the same thing .. the thread that all this started on was over 4 pages long and none of us EVER got them to run.. if anyone out there does happen to get it to work.. let me know.. cause i can get 300m coils ALLLLLL day and in case you didnt know this you CAN buy just the coils at parts stores, they carry them i believe they were $25-$30 a piece maybe.. but hey you get them from an Oriely's and they have a lifetime waranty on them...

Ok, yours didn't work. Duh. Nobody's did, the 300M coils won't work because they are set up to expect a different dwell time than the DSM coils are set up for. The longer DSM dwell time will kill the 300M coils.

I'm not arguing that it should work, I'm just saying that the reason you gave for it earlier was wrong.

 

[brads]

Originally posted by kpt4321
Nobody's did, the 300M coils won't work because they are set up to expect a different dwell time than the DSM coils are set up for. The longer DSM dwell time will kill the 300M coils.

Was it just the coil dying? If the 300M coil charged that quickly, I'd be worried about frying the DSM power transistor too. If you put a coil on there that draws too much current to quickly, the transistor gets hot quick.

Did you find info on what current they were seeing, and what sort of dwell time they needed? Or their impedance and inductance?

Brad

 

[kpt4321]

In the original DIY-COP thread, GorcMax claimed that the coils were dying, because they had a shorter dwell time. That's where I got my information from.

However, in this case it makes more sense. When people had problems, they could just switch back to the DSM coils and the problems were solved. That must mean that the power transistors were fine.

Some of the facts you're looking for are listed in that thread.

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

You people need to settle down here.

I'm reposting this link becasue it is the most info on COP ignition we have.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/sho...ght=buschur+COP

Believe me if it was really worth all the time and effort everyone would make a kit and they sure wouldn't cost 500bux.

 

[MNGSX]

I have my own rig that was cheap and designed for the engine... Part of it is just EVO part#s (also some newer galants which makes it cheap)

I'm taking it all off untill I get the standalone tuned because some people..... Including even those with really cool websites and wicked cars fried an OE DSM ignitor or two while experimenting with the ignition controls on the ECU.

 

[Rick@AP]

On a car that I'm currently working on, I was seriously considering switching to a COP setup. The only reason I would consider this type of setup is because the car is running an AEM EMS system which will allow you to input the amount of dwell time you want.

MNGSX - I thought you went AEM EMS (or was it Autronic)? I would think that with either system you would hav no problem with the COP setup. All that should be necessary is to find out what the dwell time is on a 300M and use the same figure.

 

[brads]

Originally posted by MNGSX
I have my own rig that was cheap and designed for the engine... Part of it is just EVO part#s (also some newer galants which makes it cheap)

If they are the Evo 8 coils, I think the DSM coils have more spark energy potential than they do. I wouldn't consider using them an upgrade.

Brad

 

[MNGSX]

The best coils are likely a "pencil" coil type COP. Mitsubishi automotive electronics has some of them they make with or without integrated ignitors...

I went to a used pro-efi... It does the trick for low cost. It is more limited than AEM EMS but not as much as you think.. I still can control NOS when that day comes as well as boost. Still run WB o2..etc..

There are many versions of this available and most don't know that it is really a GEMS designed system.... as is AEM EMS.... With the version I have now I only have two ignition drivers.. With other types and ECU's like AEM (GEMS EMS) you can have atleast four..


If any of you know of a potent coil from any car.. Let me know...

 

[slowAWDTSi]

How about an aftermarket coil that will bold up? MSD makes one supposedly they are in the summit magazine. Part # MSD-8229
The reason for starting this thread was that my stock coil has a hole in one of the towers and i need a new one and i had some COP coils floating around
Drew

 

[LightningGSX]

I'm certainly not an expert on ignitions, but my understanding is the OEMs are migrating towards COP setups for convenience reasons only.Meaning they need better control of the ignition process, on a per cylinder basis, and it only makes sense to not have 4-6-8 remotely mounted coils with wires running to each plug.I also fail to see how higher energy ignitions equate to power gains in our vehicles(DSMs), either the spark jumps the gap and ignites the mixture or not.There is a certain probability of ignition, which would increase with higher energy spark, but still useless to %98 of DSM's.

 

[brads]

THe MSD coils are the 4 tower coil used on the non turbo. It will not fit into the factory turbo coil location, the plug wires wouldnt match up either. And you would have to get the connector off an NT or eclipse to wire the coil in. So it would be a good bit of work to get it installed.

Brad

 

[slowAWDTSi]

Doh that part number is for a 2gnt n/m on the summit part :thumbdown

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by LightningGSX


I'm certainly not an expert on ignitions, but my understanding is the OEMs are migrating towards COP setups for convenience reasons only.

Wrong...

It may also be a convenience but it is more reliable and efficient.

Meaning they need better control of the ignition process, on a per cylinder basis, and it only makes sense to not have 4-6-8 remotely mounted coils with wires running to each plug.

Actually the evo uses only two coils like a non COP dsm... In fact it is just two COP coils and two shorty plug wires for the other end of the double ended coil. So many engines with COP have fewer than one coil per plug.

I also fail to see how higher energy ignitions equate to power gains in our vehicles(DSMs), either the spark jumps the gap and ignites the mixture or not.There is a certain probability of ignition, which would increase with higher energy spark, but still useless to %98 of DSM's. [/B]

Ever notice how as boost pressure increases some smart people warn of closing the gap on your plugs a bit....

Would'nt it be better to have enough juice on tap to jump that factory gap at elevated boost levels with no problem? Thereby striking a nice wide hot arc in that dense mixture.

 

[LightningGSX]

I could care less about the evo coils, what does that have to do with anything I said? Years ago when vehicles started to come with COP setups, most of OEMs (unless I remember wrong) claimed it was for control and emissions purposes(and no plug wires to replace), such as Ford when they started to put them on the 5.4's, it was to allow them to cut the amount of cylinders firing in engine threatening situations(warranty purposes) and better emissions(Via cylinder specific timing and such).Reliability wise it makes sense, since they're only firing half the time, but you also have double(or at least more) the amount of coils that can potentially go bad and need to be replaced.And either the mixture ignites or it doesn't, there is no in between.I'm not saying you are wrong, but you guys talk about it like you can pull extra power from higher energy ignitions, but I don't see it that way.If it ignites you have full power, if it doesn't you lose a lot of power.


"Would'nt it be better to have enough juice on tap to jump that factory gap at elevated boost levels with no problem? Thereby striking a nice wide hot arc in that dense mixture."

If our stock ignitions didn't have enough juice to jump the gap at elevated boost levels, they wouldn't run at elevated boost levels period.Since there are quite a few working stock ignition/elevated boost setups around I don't see it being a problem.Bottom line, in most of our(or most other) situations COP(for efficiency means), 16v, or any other ign upgrade is worthless.The only benefit of COPs are if you have an ecu capable of taking advantage of it.

 

[MNGSX]

This is a supra but notice that he regapped his stock plugs tighter!

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/techarticles/boostmod/hpfboostmod.html


Look at a NT and a T DSM....

Turbo .028"
NT .048"

So the difference between NA and factory boost is alot as far as a reliable plug gap..

Now consider those running very high psi..

A major increase in spark energy will make a big difference on a high boost turbo engine....


There is alot too it....

More boost = Less gap or More Boost = More spark energy needed

More spark energy = more boost or More Spark = Wider Gap at same boost..

In a nutshell more spark energy = good....

I'm looking into non DSM ignitors and coils that work with std alones..

Some are runing .035 to .050 plug gaps at 2bar boost with no misfires...

A more powerfull spark is also more accurate lighting the mixture at the same crank degrees more accurately...

 

[psychlow]

Increasing the gap the spark will travel under high-boost conditions will increase performance and economy a small amount if you have enough energy to jump the gap. A larger, hotter spark has more surface area and heat energy to create a good flame front.

It's not going to add massive amounts of horsepower. On a stock car you'd probably not even notice a difference. But on high RPM, highly boosted engines, you can realize gains, especially if you're on the verge of blowing out spark on the stock ignition system. You can 'fix' that by closing the gap some, but why do that when you can just create a better spark to jump the stock gap?

One thing I'd like someone to figure out is why turbo DSMs are picky about the plugs we put in them, and why they tend to eat plugs and wires like candy.

No other vehicle I've seen goes through plugs and wires as fast as turbo DSMs, and it's not a problem just limited one or two people, I'm sure many others will agree. Boosted V8s on stock (distributorless) ignition coils have less problems with going through wires and plugs than our cars seem to.

 

[LightningGSX]

Did I miss something? When did plug gap come on topic?

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by LightningGSX
Did I miss something? When did plug gap come on topic?

Ummm it's kinda like discussing ring gap or piston-wall clearance when you are talking about pistons.

The coil's output determimes gap recomendations..