Clutch/Hydraulic system woes.

[PieEyedPiper]

In late 2005 I had my clutch replaced with a Spec Stage 2+ unit. I also had the fork, but not the ball at my mech's recommendation, replaced and the flywheel resurfaced.
When I got the car back, I had air in the lines and enough chatter to take on those vibrating beds they have in some motels.

Early 2006 I replaced my slave and master cylinders with Autozone units. They lasted for a while before failing.

Since then I have replaced my master and slave cylinders at least 2 or 3 times each because of mushy pedal feel that I couldn't get rid of. I also installed a FULL SS line from SBR. The new units always improved the situation, but it was only about 3 weeks MAX before I would be in the same boat. Air in the lines.

This winter, 2007-2008, I not only replaced the cylinders (again) but I purchased a different FULL SS line from MachV to see if that was the problem. I also tried experimenting with an extended slave cylinder rod. Sure enough, 2 weeks later, my clutch is mushy, hard and inconsistent.
The longer rod and the new line made zero difference. I've been using a speedbleeder to help me bleed the clutch every week so I can use the car well-enough to get to school.

I'm tired of this and I seriously need some help. With the money I've spent on hydraulic components I'm approaching the cost of a TRE tranny.

Any and all advice is welcome.

 

[90LaserTurbo89k]

That sounds alot like the problem I had in my old Laser. I have 3 old slave and master cylinders, 2 clutch kits, and 2 stainless brake line kits sitting in my garage from the what sounds like the same problem. I finally sold the car as it was, with spongy clutch pedal and all. The guy who bought it from me replaced the factory ECU with an extra one (with new caps) from a parts car he had sitting around, and the problem slowly vanished. It didnt make sense to me, but the car is still driving. One question though...does your clutch pedal have freeplay at the top end? That's how mine was and I kept thinking I needed a new clutch pedal spring or a whole new assembly. I ended up spending over $2000 on everything from the master cylinder all the way down through the slave, clutch fork, pivot ball, heavy duty throw out bearing, etc. It may not be the same for you, but you may try getting your ECU looked at, though I'm not sure if 2G's have the same ECU problems...mine was an E-prom.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I definitely appreciate the input, and it is ironic that we had similar problems. I really wonder what fixed your car, cause new ECU or not, I'm fairly certain the problem is strictly mechanical. But at this point I'll try anything. Thanks for posting.

 

[Mr.Tao]

If you already haven't, have a mechanic or someone with mechanical skills to help you look at your clutch system. There might be something you are overlooking that another person will spot. If nothing else works, I would change out your clutch for a stage 1 or stock pressure. Good Luck.

 

[turbosax2]

Since you're bleeding the clutch so often, the sealant on the bleeder screw can wear off over time. Try replacing the sealant on the bleeder screw.

http://speedbleeder.zoovy.com/

Scroll to the bottom - it's called "Sealant".

It's really easy to apply.

Clean the Speed Bleeder with soapy water to remove any brake fluid or grease and dry. A hair dryer does this nicely. With the brush cap applicator apply a small amount of thread sealant evenly to the threaded portion of the bleeder screw. (Leave the first 1 1/2 threads uncoated. This makes it easy to start threading into the wheel cylinder or caliper without cross threading.) After it is applied, dry with a hair dryer on high setting for about 1 minute. When cool and dry it is ready for installation.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I appreciate the comments.
I've had a mech briefly look into it and his opinion was that to be certain of anything the tranny will have to come back out..hello $700 bill...I just don't have the money.

As for the sealant, thats an excellent suggestion and I actually removed my speedbleeder to do just that yesterday during my ritual bleeding process. Unfortunately it did not help and my clutch pedal is now extremely stiff and spongy at the end of its stroke...just more air in the lines, as always I presume.

But the wonderful thing is that when the car is stone cold the clutch feels awesome..until the car warms up of course and thus the fluid and thus the air in the fluid that is there almost immediately after bleeding and within 2 weeks of replacement of the parts.

I have a vacuum pump thing in the mail, when it arrives I will be switching from Prestone Synthetic DOT 3 to Valvoline Full Synthetic DOT 4 fluid ( I'll try anything). When I get the part I will rebuild the entire system, meaning I will disconnect all the lines and wrap them in teflon tape in case it is a connection seal problem as suggested above and reassemble with the new fluid and new bleeding technique. I will also remove the extended slave rod since it has clearly not proved to be of any benefit for my situation.

The only reason I tried the longer rod was because it was suggested that if a fulcrum ball was worn the extended rod would prevent the original rod/clutch fork from having slack building up, thus sending some harsh feedback into the slave cylinder causing it to blow all the time. Sounded like it was for me, at the time, but I guess its now just one more thing to cross off the list.

 

[dsm4fun]

How many miles have you put on the new setup because I had the same problem in my 2gA I replaced the clutch with a slowboy 3500 unit and also added a fidanza flywheel and the slowboy diff insert. It had great pedal response on a cold start but once it warmed up it got kinda sloppy so I went through two master cylinders and I went to 2 shops neither one could fix it more than two weeks at a time before it went to crap again the best they could tell me is give it a couple pumps on the clutch pedal at start and drive it alot and come back, I did this for a while and after I hit 500 miles or so it seems to have steadied itself not as good as I want but still performs as it should and i have had no other problems with it whatsoever so you could try driving it awhile longer to see if it ever evens out

 

[silver eclipse]

The connections in the clutch line system arent made to be used with teflon. You wont get them to thread right and tight.

Have you tried slowly adjusting your pedal?(the rod that goes through the fire wall)

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Not going to work with teflon? I'm reluctant to believe that using teflon tape will not provide a good, threaded seal. But I will take that information to the store and find an appropriate sealant for the parts. I'll do anything.
Thanks for the input.

 

[t25fury]

piper,i've noticed you said you've replaced your slave and master cylinder with autozone ones,each time you replaced them, were the replacements from autozone? I would spend the extra money for dealer items as aftermarket items are notorious for not working properly and failing after a short period of time.

 

[Mr.Tao]

Have you bled the system the traditional way? Bleed it that way with a buddy a few times and see if that helps. Then If you've replaced new units and lines and bled the system to death, I would now take out your tranny by yourself and check your mechanics installation work. Have some friends help you to make the job easier and quicker. Mechanics are only human.

I would check your pedal assembly as well.

 

[Awdboost]

Only use OEM Mitsubishi parts.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I only use OEM parts, I tired the Autozone units once and once only. I use OEM parts for pretty much everything.

Will follow up soon,

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Well I did a full rebuild of the system again today. I didn't replace any parts, but I dismantled my slave though. I didn't actually intend to, but my car became undriveable this afternoon and thats what prompted another fatty bleeding session.

I removed the slave unit to re-install the original rod and while I was doing it the cylinder popped right out. The insides were clean and unscathed, and the o-ring/seal thinger around the piston appeared to be in brand new condition, as far as I could tell. After all the unit is only a month old. Before reinstalling the unit I also removed the slave restrictor to further my experimentation with the hydraulic system.

After mucking with the slave I used teflon, yep thats right, teflon, to wrap all connections in the system. I spoke to several experienced car-types and they indicated to me that teflon will do just fine and that special sealant is fine too...just more expensive. Besides, I've used teflon hundreds of times on projects, at work, wherever. It always, always provided a secure seal on all of my connections.

I also experimented with the master rod adjustment this time around. I usually have it set for an inch or two of freeplay at the top of the pedal stroke, but this time I gave it probably 5-6 inches. You see, when I have the rod adjusted almost all the way out (with adequate freeplay, of course), my engagement point is medium to high but the stroke of the pedal goes much beyond what it required to simply operate the clutch. There is a threshold point in the stroke where the pedal all of a sudden starts to get a tiny bit stiff and then it just lets go into another few inches of smooth, feather-weight travel.

Is that normal? It's been that way since I replaced my clutch. It varies in degree, dependent on the health of my hydraulic system at the time. When I'm having issues, the stiff point gets REAL stiff and the feather weight part of the stroke is then very spongy and it becomes a challenge to shift gears.

When my shit is working properly (usually when cold), that section of the stroke can feel almost seamless.

Anyways, to wrap this all up, the first 3 gear changes felt awesome. I enjoyed the much much lower pedal engagement, and how I'd "tuned out" all but an inch of that strange zone in the pedal stroke. Sadly by shift 4, all of that had come to an end, and while everything above that strange zone felt perfectly fine, that single inch or two of strangeness was back to being a soggy, half dried sponge.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I went to a shop in town today to ask some questions about whats going on. The guy was clueless. He didn't know what a 6-puck was, nor was he familiar with the term "paddle" sometimes used in place of puck. Thats fine, I was happy to elaborate for him. After I described how my clutch was designed he commented he'd never seen anything like it.

Great.

Anyways, that doesn't mean he's not a fine mechanic so I continued talking to him. He basically treated me like an idiot, wouldn't let me talk and said that my clutch, its installation, and the condition of my tranny have absolutely NOTHING to do with the hydraulic system and could not be considered a possible cause under any circumstances.

The only valuable information I walked away with was that he figured I should have the master rod adjusted so the rod itself has 1/16" or of play. Basically, just a little wiggle room so that the master is not to be preloaded or retracted in any way and is sitting in an entirely neutral position.

I admit that I've not done that the last 3 times I've installed my master, I've only been concerned with engagement, and having 1-2" of freeplay at the top of my pedal. To adjust my rod to the way he described I moved the rod by a total of about 3 threads. Probably not enough to make a difference in my case, but I'm crossing my fingers.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

One of the units, possibly the master, is clearly blown so nothing I do will solve that. But after adjusting the master rod so that it is in the most neutral position possible with the clutch pedal up tight against the cruise switch, my situation improved. I'm not longer passing that "threshold" point I described above, I just kiss it. This eliminates some of the pain of driving with blown gear, as I now have only about 5% of the stroke that is still spongy and stiff, using these settings, rather than %40.

So the question remains, why am I blowing cylinders? It appears that over extending the master is not a myth after all? I've read from numerous sources that our masters can't be damaged by over extending (at least under normal circumstances).

 

[lDoSvMe]

Any updates?

 

[Artago]

Wow what a read, that's rough man. I wish i could provide some advice but this is clearly over my head. All I can say is, good luck and don't give up.

Tom

 

[Artago]

Hey bud (what's your name BTW?), if you are still having this problem you might wanna check out this post ----> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/333895-can-anyone-figure-problem-out.html#post151838868

It sounds like it's related to your problem.

Cheers,

Tom