Closing the EGR passage with cement

[dsmfa9nutter]

I'm about to fill up the egr passage (intake) with some furnace cement, good to 2100*F. I heard about this in my v8 days (heat crossover under the carb), but I didn't try it. This is on my acid washed, bead blasted, shaved intake I'm almost done with (right after powder coating and a little gasket matching). If it's as solid as I think it will be (it's cement), I'll grind off the egr valve blob as well. Am I the first to try this in the dsm world? Even with a block off plate, the heat from the exhaust warms up the intake making the intake runner closest to it run hotter than the others and more prone to detonation.

 

[TurboDSMer]

Try it if you want but just use an EGR block off plate for $15.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

That's what I was thinking. For a while there I was thinking he was talking about the FIAV passages where some people fill them in.

 

[my98GST]

Alright... Noob question here.....Whats blocking off the EGR going to do?

 

[turbodsm18]

Alright... Noob question here.....Whats blocking off the EGR going to do?

For starters, gets rid of some uneeded vacumm lines and from what I heard....raises your egts.

 

[my98GST]

From what I've been told, it gets rid of unburnt gas from going back in to the IM.....So where does it go then?

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

Out your enhaust with the rest of it. And it's "burned" gas. EGR stands for Exhaust Gas Recirculation. It does exactly what it says. Recirculates exhaust gasses back into your intake.

Hopefully that covers your questions so the original discussion can continue unmolested.

 

[SlowSpyder]

how well does that stuff adhere to aluminum because Id hate to see that stuff dislodge itself and .... you know the rest. If it were up to me id just weld the passage shut at the flange and at the plenum.

 

[Defiant]

I'd not use furnace cement in an aluminum head. Then again, I don't understand taking away something that's good for the engine's health.
Just use a blockoff plate, if you must.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

For starters, gets rid of some uneeded vacumm lines and from what I heard....raises your egts.

It did not raise my egt and no idea why it would.

 

[DSMunknown]

It did not raise my egt and no idea why it would.

I sometimes notice that my EGT readings are about 1000 degrees higher.




http://autorepair.about.com/od/generalinfo/l/bldef165.htm
http://www.faqs.org/qa/qa-7120.html
http://www.misterfixit.com/egrvalve.htm
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h61.pdf
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/egr.htm
http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/nov97/gas.htm
http://www.dsmhorsepower.com/sedsmorg/showthread.php?t=16410



I am going to have my car inspected in the near future, and I'll inform everyone if I was able to pass. Thus far, no CEL has came on as a result of installing a block-off plate.






EDIT: Taken from 1000Q:

Has anybody ever installed an EGR blockoff plate in a [DSM]?
What sort of benefit will I see by installing an EGR blockoff in my [DSM]?


You would already know this (hint, hint) if you had checked the FAQ Locator, since Brad Bauer has had the VFAQ for this subject available for some time now. It's also discussed in the DSM Top Ten FAQ.

Many people have installed these devices. It is now commonplace to see EGR blockoff plates sold by private individuals on the DSM Parts Trader and DSMtrader.com. However, they may not work quite the way you think.

Experience has shown that the only true benefit to installing an EGR blockoff plate is that it helps keep the engine intake clean. This is because the EGR recirculates dirty exhaust gases back to the intake. The carbon and other contaminants from the exhaust tend to coat the intake piping.

While it is true that you should theoretically get a performance increase by blocking off the EGR, in practice the change is so slight as to be negligible. Even this advantage is debateable, since some people claim the EGR only functions when the car is not boosting in any case. Also, 1994 California cars and 1995+ models are equipped with additional sensors to check that the EGR is operating correctly. Installing a blockoff plate will probably cause a 'Check Engine' light on these vehicles.

Blocking the EGR should also affect emissions performance - again, in theory. In practice, it has been argued that the EGR valve is so small on our cars as to provide little benefit for emissions.

 

[dsmfa9nutter]

This would be in the intake manifold. I plan on scoring the runner so the cement will have somewhere to "grab". My point in doing this would be a more even temperature in the cylinders. In theory, it would also help against knock. You buy an intercooler to cut down intake temps yet with egr (even with a blockoff plate, it's still hot air going through the 3" passage to hit the plate), you're dumping 500*+ of hot air back into it. Yes, egr is only on at mid-throttle but how many people go from idle to WOT to idle? Residual heat still remains in the intake from the exhaust gases when the egr valve was open.


EGR plate: No, there would be no place to put it. The pad it sits on will be cut off and ground down flat.

As for the cement breaking off/etc, unless it's hit with a hammer a few times (quite unlikely in the dime sized passage), it won't be breaking down any time soon. I'm doing a "glob hardness" test atm to see just how hard it gets.

Defiant: I would like to see the data that suggests egr is better for the engine. I believe causing one cylinder to run hotter than the rest leads to uneven wear and shorter engine life.

DSMunknown: A thousand degree difference? I think your gauge is a little off...

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

DSMunknown, regarding that 1000Q blockquote... I have not gotten a CEL for installing the block-off plate. I removed the EGR completely, then connected the two vac hoses that used to connect to it to each other. These both go to a solenoid. I'm guessing that's how the ecu is supposed to "make sure it's working correctly". I'm running water/meth and I like the idea of keeping the intake even cleaner.

Did you keep the EGR with the plate, or remove entirely?

 

[Defiant]

Defiant: I would like to see the data that suggests egr is better for the engine. I believe causing one cylinder to run hotter than the rest leads to uneven wear and shorter engine life.

It cools the engine:
http://www.ukcar.com/features/tech/Engine/techno/exgr.htm

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

According to that article, the temperature is only reduced because the combustible gas in the chamber is reduced as recirculated exhaust gases displace room for fuel-rich gases. I really am not too concerned with a nominal(?) decrease in temp in the combustion chamber that is already blazing hot to begin with for the sake of emissions and questionable fuel economy increase...I gave up emissions standards a long time ago. The reverse logic of that article suggests some power increase in exchange of increased emissions and less fuel economy.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Do Not use Furnace Cement!!!



EGR recurculates the exhaust gas so that it will go back through the engine and get re-burnt even more ....and that 2nd buring helps with overall emmisions.


You don't really want the EGR if you looking for performance ....cause you want your engine to intake fresh oxygen ...not carbon.

 

[DSMunknown]

DSMunknown: A thousand degree difference? I think your gauge is a little off...

I very much doubt that. Besides, there are other things to consider.

DSMunknown, regarding that 1000Q blockquote... I have not gotten a CEL for installing the block-off plate. I removed the EGR completely, then connected the two vac hoses that used to connect to it to each other. These both go to a solenoid. I'm guessing that's how the ecu is supposed to "make sure it's working correctly". I'm running water/meth and I like the idea of keeping the intake even cleaner.

Did you keep the EGR with the plate, or remove entirely?

If you read my install guide, you would see that I kept the EGR valve fully connected. Perhaps it would be wise to see what one of our esteemed five-star generals said in this thread.

Do Not use Furnace Cement!!!

I agree. I think dsmfa9nutter is worrying himself over (basically) nothing.


What surprises me is how small the lines are connecting the EGR valve, and how there aren't a boat-load of complaints regarding these lines becoming clogged with soot and carbon build-up (and thus CELs going off and engine codes that need to be clarified).

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

If you read my install guide, you would see that I kept the EGR valve fully connected.

I saw that tech guide but didn't follow it as I see no point in keeping the EGR after the blockoff plate is installed. It effectively becomes a vestigial car part. And I have no codes nor change in egt after completely removing EGR and blocking it off.

 

[slugsgomoo]

not like egt's are that useful aside from telling when something strange is happening. Given that they vary wildly depending on timing even at idle so I pretty much only use mine for the "whoa" factor when there's a big spike.

I've never had a car with EGR and my galant with 9:1 compression, 850cc injectors, and a rough tune averages 21 city and 25 highway with peak highway economy at 27.8mpg over an entire tank. I'm really weeping about those "missing" miles per gallon that the stock emissions system could've given me. Oh wait, that would be 19/22 city/hwy. That's right, my car not only passes emissions just as well (it's current) but i'm getting way better economy?

What strange things will happen next. We'll learn that the factory ECU going stupidly rich all the time causes horrific emissions that need stupid, worthless hardware to compensate for.

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

What strange things will happen next. We'll learn that the factory ECU going stupidly rich all the time causes horrific emissions that need stupid, worthless hardware to compensate for.

Actually (if memory serves) the EGR lowers the temp to prevent creation of NOx, which is created by high heat. High heat usually resulting from a lean(er) condition.

Of course I don't disagree with your over all point.

 

[slugsgomoo]

Actually (if memory serves) the EGR lowers the temp to prevent creation of NOx, which is created by high heat. High heat usually resulting from a lean(er) condition.

Of course I don't disagree with your over all point.

right, but if you watch your wideband, or your narrow o2, you'll see that the stock ecu doesn't take much in the way of TPS or load to go a long way towards very rich. At low throttle & cruise on flat ground, it might be wonderful, but my car doesn't seem to put out much NOx even at 15.5:1 AFR WTF

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

There is kind of a temperature breaking point for creation of NOx. You may not be hitting it hence no NOx. It's a good sign you're running cool.

I hear they do like to run rich from the factory. I'm still on a narrowband so I don't bother looking at it much. A bunch of flashing 2 digit numbers don't mean a whole lot. I can say I didn't notice any change in mileage when I blocked mine. (broke a vacuum T and it was easier than fixing it)

 

[NewTurboTuner]

EGR's dont have anything to do with the MPG your car gets; its only for emmissions

 

[xveganxcowboyx]

MPG is another debatable aspect of the EGR system. And it's all I had to look at at that point in time.

 

[dsmfa9nutter]

I agree. I think dsmfa9nutter is worrying himself over (basically) nothing.

Who's worrying? I live in wisconsin, it's about 2* outside at the moment and I have nothing to do except read forums and do "basically nothing".

Do Not use Furnace Cement!!!

Why not? Do you have an actual reason, ie, actually done it and it went bad or are you just adding an opinion on something you know nothing about? Refer to Rule #3.

It cools the engine:
http://www.ukcar.com/features/tech/Engine/techno/exgr.htm

There's no data there, just one sentence. Other than that, if you read the article, it says that it reduces temperature by taking up space that could otherwise hold air/fuel therefore making less power. I think I'll take the extra power and be happy that they don't test for emissions where I live.