car runs bad...recirculating bov or new plugs to blame?

[khartley]

I'm lost here and completely frustrated with my car at this point. I've been having tons of small problems and can't seem to pinpoint them all.

First off, I did a boost leak test, and found that I was leaked from my MBC and from my bov itself (its a knock-off one) I just ducttaped the 2 for a quick fix to try and move on to other problems...but when I was doing to boost leak test, I was having to hold my hand over the recirculation hose because air was constantly being pushed out of it....thats not right, is it? And would that possibly cause my car to run super rich?
Its running so rich that my NGK's (stock heat range for winter) were completely fuel fouled in under 200 miles. I went against better judgement though and bought e3's as replacements...I'd heard neither good or bad so figured I'd give them a shot. I don't know what to say. The car starts much quicker than before, but it sounds ODD, I can't say exactly how, just that I can feel the idle in my butt when I'm sitting there, and it feels not right. It almost feels as though timing is off a bit now, is that possible?

I got on it a little last night to see if my husband could figure out what it was....and the car was acting weirder than ever. I held it steady boosting about 4 lbs, and the car was lunging, it couldn't drive steady. That kind of got better as it warmed up more, but then I tried to gently hit full boost (14psi on 16g) and it would build power for just a second, then start sputtering and sounding crazy with no more power than a non turbo...it kind of had an exhaust leak type of sound. I do have a small leak at the downpipe, but its been like that a while, and hasn't caused a problem like that yet.

I have a logger which I need to get new batteries for, anything in particular I should look for when I log? I have my fuel pressure turned down to stock.

Any help would be appreciated, I am forced to drive it, so I'd like to get the kinks worked out asap.

 

[1992awdlaser]

Actually fix the boost leaks first. Duct tape won't hold up to boost. No there shouldn't be any air coming out of the recirculation tube. Maybe your coolant temp sensor is bad and you are dumping fuel. Maybe something is wrong with your fpr and it is creating really high fuel pressure. There is multiple things it could be. If you don't know how to diagnose it I would just bring it to a shop for an estimate of how much it would cost then you can change whatever part they say is bad.

 

[kenamond]

Duct tape won't work. If the BOV is leaking, that's not a boost leak as long as it is recirculated back into the intake pipe. If it's not and you don't have a blow-through setup, then the vented air is a boost leak...do a search on "vent to atmosphere" to find out more.

If your MBC is a bleeder type, you should recirculate the bled air back to the intake pipe like the stock BCS configuration. If it's a ball-spring MBC, they *should* have a small bleeder hole in them to relieve pressure between the MBC and WGA when boost goes back down and the ball closes (or you hold the WGA open after you let off the gas). I just kink the line between the compressor and MBC and hold it pinched/folded with a small pair of vice grips while I boost leak test.

Also, your MBC should get boost signal from the j-pipe, not the BOV line. If you're tapping into the BOV line, that might be what is causing your BOV to leak; the vaccuum line on the BOV holds the BOV closed while you're boosting (the signal from the intake manifold holds the BOV valve closed). If you T into the BOV line, you degrade that boost signal, and the boost pressure in the intake pipe and in the center chamber under the diaphragm in the BOV will push the valve open under boost (tug of war goes in favor of opening the valve rather than holding it closed.

Do the boost leak test on a fully-warmed-up motor. The rings need to be fully sealed, or the blowby during the test will lead to a lot of air coming out the VC breather (the crank case and top of the head are connected by large oil return passages that let oil from the valvetrane drain back to the oil pan.

If the motor is fully warmed up and you still get a lot of boost leak test air coming out the VC breather, unscrew the pcv valve from the back-passenger side of the valve cover but leave the vaccuum line (coming from the intake manifold) attached to the pcv valve. Repeat the boost leak test and see if any air is leaking out of the PCV vlave. If it is, the PCV is shot. Replace with an OEM valve from a Mitsu dealership (you can NOT use Autozone/Carquest/etc. PCV valve, as it will not hold pressure right out of the box). The PCV valves don't last long on these cars. They are check valves that aren't supposed to let air from the intake manifold into the valve cover, but if it isn't sealing, boost pressure in the intake will leak through the PCV and boost your crankcase.

If you still have leaks out the VC breather even with a new, functioning PCV valve, check your compression. If it's low, do a wet test. If that doesn't significantly increase compression, do a leakdown test to determine specifically what the problem is.

I do believe that you still have boost leaks. You need to fix them all. You should be able to hold 20psi and leak down 1psi every few seconds. But that assumes you don't have compression issues or leaking intake valve stem seals (they go through the "roof" of the intake ports which see boost pressure, so can leak air during a boost leak test). Do a search to find out how to do a proper boost leak test, where leaks might exist, etc. Fix them all!!

As far as running a 3 plug, you're probably running better due to the hotter heat range plug which will tend to burn off what was fouling the stock plugs. However, it will not conduct heat away from the electrode into the head quick enough and will get too hot. With the electrode too hot, you could be knocking badly (the plug is a hotspot that either preignites the air-fuel charge). That's very bad for the motor.

I think that you have to fix your rich condition and return to BPR6ES plugs gapped to 0.028". If you're boosting at 17psi or higher, you need to move to a cooler plug (7ES if you're at 17-20psi, cooler if you go higher, so that the hotter combustion chamber temps don't overheat the plug tips...I don't know what specific boost level you should switch from 7s to 8s, but a search would tell you). If you weren't running the 6ES plugs or didn't have them gapped properly, you could have been misfiring. Also, the plug wires or coil pack could cause misfires, but that might not be the problem...but if the wires are old, you might want to change them anyway.

So try to eliminate the problems you know you have first and see if it improves. If not, go to the next thing.

I'm all out of ideas at the moment, and my wife needs the computer .

Good luck!

 

[crimsondragon]

What kind of knockoff BOV is it? And where is it leaking exactly? Chances are it's leaking at the flange. If it's a metal type of BOV, bring it to a welder and have them weld the flange to the BOV for a permanent and tight seal.

 

[tommy260]

Make sure to change your plug wires too if you havent

 

[khartley]

Thank you so much for the help! I actually ordered a stock 1g bov on a better uicp and a new better MBC that should be here soon to fix those 2 problems...

The BOV I have no idea what kind of knock-off it it, I could take a pic if you'd like. I'm curious as to what the flange on it is. It is leaking out the recirc. hose constantly, and also leaking at the flange (I figured the duct tape wouldn't prevent all the leak, but may help it out a bit) I figured that I would do a new leak down test after replacing the bov and mbc. The BOV may be leaking for the reason stated above...I'm not sure which of the vacuum hoses go which way on the boost controller. I have one of the really cheap $10 ball and spring ones. I'm going to look into that more, hopefully there is a vfaq about properly hooking up your mbc!

As for the PCV valve...I had replaced it last winter, but I did replace it with an Autozone one. I will get one from the Mitsu dealership asap.

I have really good plug wires, and I just checked them as well and they are fine. I will be replacing the e3's right away though.

I also have an appointment at an exhaust shop to have ALL of my exhaust leaks fixed, I see the one at the downpipe and also have a small leak right at the exhaust manifold.

 

[kenamond]

First of all, be clear that when I say "leakdown" test, that's different than a boost leak test. It is a test for identifying what is leaking in the combustion chamber (and you do this if your compression is poor and it's not due to worn rings). Google "dsmgrrrl leakdown" and "dsmgrrrl compression" to get good DSM pages for compression and leakdown testing.

There is a tech article for proper ball-spring MBC installation on this forum. Your cheap-o MBC might work just fine.

You should put some RTV on the gasket for the BOV-to-UICP flanges. A little bit smeared around should be good unless the flanges are bent/warped. I'm only aware of 3 BOV flange types: 1g, 2g, and Greddy. Maybe there are others. But there are adaptors between 2g-to-1g, 2g-to-Greddy, 1g-to-Greddy, and Greddy-to-1g (I'm pretty sure). And you can modify a 1g flange for Greddy and vice-versa (drill holes or make a plate with 4 holes).

Trace the vaccuum lines around from end to end and make a bit of a diagram. You'll probably learn a bit in the process.

 

[crimsondragon]

If you already got the 1g bov on the way then it'll be an excellent replacement once you do the dodge garage mod to it. It'll hold all the way up to 30 psi.
DDG- Talon BOV mod for HIGH BOOST

 

[kenamond]

But at the cost of quick release.

 

[khartley]

Yes, I meant boost leak test, sorry. And in the 5 years I've owned this car, I've learned a TON by the way...yet I still feel like I know nothing about it :l

I actually reinstalled the stock boost controller this afternoon, and it is running much better, but still seems like it isn't completely cured...I will try a few more things tomorrow and see what happens.

Thank you so much for all the ideas and links!

 

[kenamond]

Don't forget about that boost leak test.

 

[khartley]

Ok, so as stated I reinstalled a stock boost controller (the right way, ) and it seemed better but I think that was a figment of my imagination. I took the car to an exhaust shop today to have all my exhaust leaks fixed, cause there was a bad one at the manifold I couldn't fix myself because of a broken stud.

It is still doing the hesitation when easing into boost...but it pulls really good when I actually get on it. Could it possibly have anything to do with fuel?

I have also noticed that just recently it has started to be really hard to shift gears at high rpms, but smooth as ever at low rpm's. Would that be syncro's or master cylinder? Possibly just need to adjust the clutch? Clutch was replaced only a few thousand miles ago...

I'm going to retry a boost leak test this weekend. Any idea on how I can prevent all the air from escaping out the bov recirc? My stock replacement bov hasn't come in yet. I think I got ripped off :angry:

 

[kenamond]

You *could* have fixed the broken stud yourself

As for boost leak testing (BLT) your intake with the leaky BOV, you can test at the throttle body elbow for now. There are several common places after the elbow that leak over time. PCV valve, injector seals, TB gaskets, throttle shaft seals, BISS o-ring, intake manifold-to-head gasket, and intake valve stem seals are all potential leaks you could find and fix while waiting for the BOV. You might be able to remove the BOV and somehow seal the UICP flange or the BOV dump pipe...I don't know what it looks like and what tools/scraps you have laying around, so you'll have to decide if you want to screw around with that or not. I'd BLT at the TB elbow and go from there. When I did my first BLT, the only leaks I had to fix that were before the elbow was the BOV-to-UICP gasket...FWIW.

 

[khartley]

I am going to do the throttle body leak down right now.

I messed with the hesitation thing a bit more. it does it at any rpm, but not every time. when it does it though, it feels like someone threw an anchor behind the car. if I keep the throttle steady it will eventually pick itself up, but the factory boost gauge will sometimes be jumping all over the place during the hesitation.

I also noticed a slight oil film on the intake side of the turbo, is that normal? there is a little play side to side, but none in and out.

I tried to use my logger but I guess it is broken because it just gives zeros on everything I try and read.

 

[kenamond]

The oil is from the valve cover breather (passenger end of the valve cover). It vents crankcase pressure back into the intake, and a bit of oil goes along for the ride. You can use an in-line filter and catch can setup, but you need to do it "correctly". The simplest is to use a fuel filter. Do a search for VC breather filter and you'll find out all you ever wanted to know. The "Stupid PCV question" thread is a good one for explaining the PCV system including the VC breather. Methods of filtering the air is covered as well.

The BOV might have a lot to do with the hesitation. Once you run out of parts you *know* are bad and still have problems, then we'll take it from there.

 

[khartley]

No results with the throttle body leak down, but I'm still going to replace the PCV and get a new fuel filter put in tomorrow. I have been going to put an inline fuel filter where the valve cover breather is, I'll do that tomorrow as well.

I'll keep this thread updated, cause I'd really like to get this problem solved, and I appreciate all of your help so far!

 

[kenamond]

Just to make sure about the BLT...you pressurized to 20psi and it leaked down 1psi every few seconds?

 

[khartley]

Uh...haha, NO! It took about 15 seconds to completely depressurize....I must be doing something wrong.

 

[kenamond]

No, it just means that you still have leaks. If you can pressurize to 20psi and leak down at 1psi every few seconds, you've fixed all of the boost leaks. But if you have low compression, that will seem like a boost leak, but it's not something you can quickly fix. If it's due to rings, you can add oil to the cylinders like you would in a wet compression test (research this, too much will hydrolock the motor). But if it's valve sealing issues (which you can identify with a leakdown test (Google "dsmgrrrl leakdown" for more about that test), then there's not as simple of a fix.

But for now, you can fix all of the "easy" leaks until you run out of things you can detect.

I'm saying all of this, because folks often think they fixed their leaks but they haven't. Doing the test doesn't fix the leaks, it just identifies them. And I was just pointing out what your goal should be.