Can you start car without transmission fluid???

[gieri002]

I just finished building/installing my engine and I am wondering if there are any adverse effects of starting it up without any transmission(manual) fluid in it. Without moving it of course

 

[bryanwheat]

Auto or manual? An auto can burn up the front pump without fluid, and a manual can burn up the input shaft bearings and all the roller bearings for the 3 and 4 gears.

 

[gieri002]

Its a manual, so that's a no go then?

 

[steve]

I wouldn't. The transmission is still going to spin some with the clutch disengaged which sounds like a bad idea if it's not filled.

 

[bryanwheat]

I suppose you could put it in gear and keep the clutch held down. That will keep the transmission from turning.

 

[steve]

If the axles are in the trans (which would be required to keep the trans from spinning) why not just fill the trans.

 

[Anubis_4_99]

Can you? Yes.

Is it a good idea? No.

Really it's up-to you if you want to risk your car getting back on the road for a start up that would take 10 more minutes to put fluid in.

 

[SOADweskey]

I wouldn't do it. I had my 5th gear seize from revving my engine high in neutral and there was oil in it but the car hadn't been driven in a while and the front diff pumps oil around in there. If the internals rotate at any speed with no lubrication you risk damage.

Also holding the clutch in for a prolonged period on a new engine build isn't the greatest for the thrust bearings.

 

[MidShipCivic]

It will not hurt it, with miniscule load it will not hurt the transmission it needs to generate enough heat to even do that.

If it was an auto this would be a problem, but seriously just put some transmission fluid in the car.

 

[bryanwheat]

It will not hurt it, with miniscule load it will not hurt the transmission it needs to generate enough heat to even do that.

If it was an auto this would be a problem, but seriously just put some transmission fluid in the car.

It's not about having a load on it, it is about having metal parts touching each other with out lubrication.

 

[gieri002]

Alright, I guess I'll wait until tomorrow to start her up then

 

[bryanwheat]

Alright, I guess I'll wait until tomorrow to start her up then

You don't have a 24 hour walmart? They have gl5 oil in stock.

 

[MidShipCivic]

It's not about having a load on it, it is about having metal parts touching each other with out lubrication.

No.


The transmission isn't pressure lubrication, it is splash lubrication there is pretty much no splashing occurring at idle in neutral, so it will be fine there isn't any load so it cannot hurt it's self with exerting extreme pressure generating the heat to damage it.

 

[bryanwheat]

I am well aware that it isn't a pressurized lubrication system. I've had many of them apart. And YES you will be moving oil at idle. The intermediate shaft along with 1st and 2nd gear will be submerged if you have the oil full. I can show you a picture of a transmission take apart and where the fill plug is located to show you this.

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IT is slightly lower than where i put the line, probably about an inch, but you can see that the intermediate shaft is submerged in oil.

 

[DirtyDSMDan]

with all that said, be safe over sorry, ride the temptation and do it right, put the fluid in the tranny. trust me if the build is worth it, another night of wait wont hurt you, if anything the glory of being able to start it up with no worry is worth it.

 

[MidShipCivic]

I am well aware that it isn't a pressurized lubrication system. I've had many of them apart. And YES you will be moving oil at idle. The intermediate shaft along with 1st and 2nd gear will be submerged if you have the oil full. I can show you a picture of a transmission take apart and where the fill plug is located to show you this.


IT is slightly lower than where i put the line, probably about an inch, but you can see that the intermediate shaft is submerged in oil.

The transmission technically doesn't ''move'' oil it splashes oil you could call it the worst form of lubrication. High vicosity ''cold'' oil splashes around? Na.

Roller bearings and ball bearings use very little oil you can jack your car up in the air put your hand on the tire and stop the rotation in neutral with your hand. The flywheel will just spin and drag on the clutch.

You're not proving much. It's very harmless I've done this before that's why I'm saying it's fine. I'm unsure how one's 5th fail in idling neutral that's the strangest issue yet.

You can post pictures all day but if you don't understand the dynamics or not try to understand them it kills the explanations off for the point I'm trying to make.

 

[bryanwheat]

There WILL be oil moving around, i don't care what you say. The input shaft will be spinning the 1 and 2 gears on the intermediate shaft which constantly turning on the intermediate shaft in neutral. The oil will travel up to the top of the transmission thru gear's touching each other and oil sticking to the gears. IT also isn't just about the roller bearings, the 1st and 2nd gears will be constantly meshing with the gears on the input shaft, along with the sliders turning in the shift forks on the input shaft.

 

[gieri002]

Interesting, good arguments on both side. I do have a 24 hour Walmart but I don't want anything they sell(Lucas) in my transmission!

 

[bryanwheat]

They have super tech gear oil. It is pretty good stuff. It will be just fine.

 

[MidShipCivic]

There WILL be oil moving around, i don't care what you say. The input shaft will be spinning the 1 and 2 gears on the intermediate shaft which constantly turning on the intermediate shaft in neutral. The oil will travel up to the top of the transmission thru gear's touching each other and oil sticking to the gears.

:sighs:


The transmission doesn't move oil to anything an automatic transmission moves oil using a pump, a Porsche GT3 G96 manual 6 speed transaxle moves oil using a pump and spray bars directly to gears and bearings.

A DSM splashes oil in an undefinable matter in fact you should be realizing you proved my point the manufacturers submerged the counter shaft, so when it spins faster the gear teeth almost radially splash oil (+ with the cars movement factored in) there is no damaging load at idle with the trans spinning it's own weight.

'' I don't care'' The words of someone who hasn't tried it I am speaking from experience. With it just turning geartrain + clutch drag nothing will occur.

I've even had a buddy drove for 30 mins on his FWD tsi with with less than a half a quart of transmission fluid in his car he came back he came back rolling into the driveway with a gear whine. I filled it to level, whine stopped never had a problem since. That's pressure, heat and thousands of psi of load on a gear tooth and bearings.

I've let my TSI idle wheels spinning in air after a rebuild no fluid in the case thats been drained and sat for a year so there was no previous saturation of oil on the gear tooth pretty much spinning dry.

I've never had the issues mind you if you're just seeing if the engines starts and idles, sure if you're trying to do anything else then do not operate the engine.

Mind you how long do you think it was going to run dry ? It wasn't even worth talking about.

That's all I'm going to share, in the future you should be open to ''dynamics''.

 

[bryanwheat]

I know exactly how the oil moves around inside the transmission, you don't have to explain anything to me. You do what you would like, i don't like to take chances with no lubrication inside my transmission, and don't think that it is good to recommend that to someone else either. Maybe you like taking chances with stuff, but for the time it takes to put a few quarts of oil in the transmission there is no reason.

 

[JusMX141]

Roller bearings and ball bearings use very little oil you can jack your car up in the air put your hand on the tire and stop the rotation in neutral with your hand. The flywheel will just spin and drag on the clutch.

My GSX trans was bad when I bought the car- apparently the previous owner had run the car with the trans low on fluid because literally less than a quart of oil came out when I pulled the drain plug.

The result- the bearings are JUNK, the gears all looked acceptable. Too bad some of the bearings failed so badly that it ruined the cases as well. So much for roller bearings needing very little oil.

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[MidShipCivic]

You said ''apparently'' So that means you don't really know what he did.

Roller bearings aren't hydrodynamic bearings, so he did some driving on that.

 

[JusMX141]

I never said it wasn't driven that way, just stating that the bearings failed before the gears did from a lack of oil. None of which matters because the O.P. isn't driving the car anywhere, nor would he be running the car long enough to do likely damage from a lack of lubrication.

If you're looking for an argument, you're not getting one here.

 

[MidShipCivic]

I never said it wasn't driven that way, just stating that the bearings failed before the gears did from a lack of oil. None of which matters because the O.P. isn't driving the car anywhere, nor would he be running the car long enough to do likely damage from a lack of lubrication.

If you're looking for an argument, you're not getting one here.

I'm not trying to debate with you.

Yeah rollers will fail heat it up, apply load on it and kiss it good bye.

That just further supports my point low load = okay.

Heavy load = No go.

What about the rest of the transmission?