Building a new motor Need insight and opinions

[T3rB0]

Hey guys I'm kind of noob so ### don't be harsh on me. I want to say that I have been doing alot of reading on this topic for the past couple days and came down to what I have to ask about now. This will be my first time building a motor so i wanted to ask for your opinions and help on some topics I have.
Heres the deal I just recently totaled my 99 gsx by bending the frame. Good thing is I didn't hurt the motor or transmission in any way. I just baught another 98 Gsx with a bad tranny. So what i'm going to do is swap my tranny from my old car into this one.
Now as for my question: While this new car i baught has a stock 7bolt that works fine with no problems i am going to drive it as long as i can while i build up my 6 bolt motor from my totaled car.

*Things I want to do at machine shop*
-have it bored .020 over.(What is Honed do to a motor, smooth the cylinder walls? If so then since i am boring it .020 i wont need to have it honed?)
-Fully deck the head and block
-Hot tank it 100%
-What should i port on the 2g head? Is it the intake ports? I know the 1g head is bigger.
-Jet washed
-All valves reground
-What crank work should i have them do? (Resurface it?/Balance and polish it?)

*(not sure if you would have a machine shop do these things?So ### let me know) -new oil pump. -new water pump,-balance shaft eliminated with kit,-new valve stem seals and cam seals, and have them pressure check it. Would these get done at a machine shop?

*Internals to get*
-Eagle rods
-Ross pistons (should i ask for them to be .020 over or doesn't matter?
-BC Camshafts 272/272 combo
-BC Springs and TI retainers
-Stainless steel Valves. (should I buy them 1mm over or not and whats the difference?)
-Buy a 1g throttle body
-Clevite main bearings and Clevite rod bearings
-Arp head/Arp main and Arp rod bolts
-Cometic or mitsu metal head gasket
-Cam seals and Crank seals
-oil pump seal
-normal engine set gaskets
- (Should I get new TB tensioner pulley and idler pulley)
-prothane motor mounts


Thats what i have searched so far. Now for some insight on what i have already
-2g stock head
-1g block (6bolt)
-20g
-255 holley pump
-Stock fuel rail
-Afpr with gauge
-Safc2
-aem uego wideband/boost gauge/egt gauge/oil pressure gauge/air fuel gauge
-apexi n1 turbo back exhaust
-MAFT
-680cc injectors
-Boost controller
-suspension work
-short throw shifter
-act 2600 clutch and also another exedy stage 2
- 1 or 2 more small things

Now most ppl say its not necessary to do this but i want to so ### just help me with what im going to be doing. I want to have a street and sometimes track car. My goals are to have 450-500 hp tro crank and 400-450 AWHP
So guys what im asking for is some help on things I should buy or things I don't need to buy from the list I added above. I really appreciate the help

 

[90laserRSfwd]

You should have the machine shop assemble the entire motor. I'm not discrediting you in anyway, just judging by the questions your asking I think it would be better to have the machine shop do all the assembly work.

Yes you have to order the pistons in .020 over (85.5mm bore)

1mm valves are exactly that, 1mm (.020) larger then the stock valves. They flow more and in my opinion, they are better for the motor.

I would have the machine shop replace all the valve guides in the head, install the valve seals, valves, springs and retainers, do a 3 angle valve job, check the head for warpage. Also I'd tell them that your trying to make 450 awhp and see what else they might recommend. As far as the bottom end goes, I'd have them bore and finish home the cylinders, hot tank, line bore the main caps, polish and balance the crank (only turn it if need be), deck it. Have them finish surface the head and block to 40 RA or better and assemble the motor.

I'd recommend staying away from porting the head unless you know what your doing. You don't want to mess something up and not have your 20g make boost until like 5K because you messed up the runners.

Eagle rods come with ARP bolts, so you don't need to worry about that.

I'd recommend that you use the Mitsu MLS head gasket.

I would recommend that you replace the timing belt, tensioner, tensioner pulley, and idler pulley

I would also recommend that you get a logger. The maft, safc, and wideband aren't going to help you if you can't watch for knock. Don't get me wrong you need those 3 but I'm just saying to get some sort of logging setup. Other then that you look to be on your way.

 

[layzie12g]

You have a good start I think you need to do a little more reading and research before you start putting your plans in to action. Is there a tuner shop around you that deals with dsms??? If there is i would go talk to them and let them know your plans and they should be able to sit down with you for a half hour or so and anwser the questions you have a bout the honing/boring process. I dont think any port work will be required to make the power you are looking for. The crank is very important though. I would not use a reground crank. It looses its hardened nitrate layer where the bearings go making it weak. Make sure you get a real Mitsu crank. Look in to DSM LINK for your tuning needs, and like 09laser said replace all the little things in the engine. (water pump timing belt valve seals and so on) Doing things right is going to double the price range you had in mind to spend but in the end you will thank yourself. Good Luck.

 

[T3rB0]

(90laser) Now when you say I should have the machine shop do all the work what do you mean by that. Like what should i include them do? (### give me a list of everything you suggest.
Ok better yet can you guy's give me a complete list of what you would have done at the machine shop and what internals would you buy to do a complete shortblock 6bolt motor with stock 8:5:1 compression. This would be really nice to see how you guys and others would make your exact build with my motor. For my budget i have a little over 3k to do this. Thanks again

 

[layzie12g]

The stock compression on 1st gen cars is 7:8:1 I believe. An oem oil pump is 400 bucks just to let you know. When you go to the machine shop they will tell you everything they think that should be done. Just make sure your block is flat enough to seal with an mls or some other kind of metal headgasket. That is very important. I wouldnt order any parts with out contacting your machine shop first. Be in close communication with them. Also tell them the horsepower the engine will be making so they can gap the rings accordingly. I would also make sure they have done 4g63s before. Are your going to be doing all the labor besides the engine build?

 

[T3rB0]

I would like to do it all myself this way i could learn

 

[DSMtaco]

I personally cant really help ya out T3rBO, since im in the same situation as you. But Layzie12g mentioned something i found interesting, that i think might help us both. You said your budget was around 3k, and layzie said to do it right you can expect double that. I think we all wanna do things the right way, but when there are so many options, multiple routes can be considered right. If you can expect double, so around 6k...why not just buy a fully built crate engine from ffwd, buschur, sbr, etc. In the end, you'll spend about the same $$$ as if you went through the trouble of piecing an engine together on your own and having a shop assemble it. The only thing you lose is the knowlege and the experience you'd gain from doing it on your own. This being said, forum members, are we better off buying crate engines, or going through the trouble of assembling these toys ourselves????

 

[90laserRSfwd]

I'm at work right now but I get off in about an hour. I'll have a good novel, or um I mean post, for you then

 

[neoviper]

Well the OP says that his car has a perfectly running 7-bolt. In my opinion he should try and do as much work to the 6 bolt as he can on his own. Knowledge is power.
That being said though I would stay away from doing your own work to the head for reasons already mentioned

 

[DSMtaco]

Good point, i dunno if they come with all the small stuff, but i'm willing to bet your right when saying they don't. But will all our 2G parts (oil pump, water pump, etc.) bolt up with the 1G 6 bolt, or if we got a crate engine would we have to buy extra stuff?

Lets say i went the 6 bolt crate route. With my mechanically sound 2g + crate engine, will i be off to the races or will i need alot of small stuff from some 1G. Cause if i would, it sounds like the best bet would be to buy a whole 1G clip, which then supplies me with all the small stuff.

Hopefully that made sense....i just reread it, and i the writer, am now lost...

 

[T3rB0]

(neodriver) --- And along for everyone else.. I am not goig to buy a crate motor! so that is out of the question. Now when You stated that i should do my owen work that is exactly what im going to do. I havea motor that i have to time to play with and learn as much as possible so why wudn;t i take advatage of that. =)


(Dsm Taco)___ To be honest with youy i have looked for every internal part from almost every vendor so far. With my comparing the best price from each site that has the loswet prrice i was able to come out with a totla of $2235 for everything. I have also Realized that if I can buy themajority of the parts from oine vendore i will be able to get a discout and better deal. So hopefully wit a deal included i can get around 21k and 22 with shipping. (that does not include the motor work.) But i have also read that from past experiences of people getting the same work done i will be looking at aroun 700$ for it all considering they have will the motor hand deleiverd to them and wont have to charge laboir for taking it out. so like i said aroun 3k

 

[snowborder714]

Here's what you need to do to do a 6 bolt swap:
http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/tech/1gina2g.pdf

Please try searching next time.

 

[90laserRSfwd]

ok man here's my suggestions as promised.

1st if you have a 6 bolt motor, only use the bottom end, the 2g head (even unported) has better velocity and flows very well. I'd suggest that you have the machine shop do the following. I assume that since you have a 6 bolt motor, thats what is going to the machine shop.

Here's what I'd have done at the machine shop (in your case):


Block:

hot tanked (aka cleaned, degreased, whatever you wanna call it)

resurfaced (tell them you need a 40 R A or better finish on both the block and head, they will know what your talking about even if you don't, if they don't know what a 40 R A or better finish is, take your parts and go to a better machine shop)

line bore main bearing caps (if needed)

MIC'd (to check for cracks and core shift)

Have them replace all the freeze plugs and ESPECIALLY the oil galley plug with a new Mitsubishi one.
Only bore the block over if need be. Have them also check the crank to see if it can just be polished. Let the machine shop order the bearings, ask them to get ACL tri metal bearings (rod and main) if possible.

Head:

I would use the 2g 7 bolt cylinder head (unported)

Have the machine shop bore the head bolt holes out to 12mm (the 6 bolt arp head studs are 12mm where as the 2g 7 bolt heads are only 11mm)

I would have them degrease the entire head and replace all the valve guides that need replace, have them install new valve stem seals, order (yourself or the machine shop) 1mm over s/s valves that are nitride coated, get a set of BC (brain crower) 272 cams and they're spring and retainer kit, I'd also get a set of manley locks or at least check your stock ones. The factory rockers are ok. I'd suggest 3g lifters also. I would suggest that you DO NOT port the cylinder head if you don't know what your doing. It only takes seconds to ruin a cylinder head with a porting bit if you do it incorrectly. I know, I've done it!!!

Parts to order (you or the machine shop):

Rods - for the money it would cost to have the 1g rods shot peened and ARP bolts installed, it's worth to spend the money on a good forged rod. The SCAT or Eagle rods come with ARP rod bolts already and can be had for around $300. My personal preference is SCAT. They have an extra oiling hole at the small end of the rod, also they weigh less then the Eagle rods.

Pistons - My personal preference is Mahle. Mahle's are lighter then Wiseco's and Ross pistons (less rotating mass = faster rev's). Choose whatever company you like. Most offer anywhere from 8.3:1 to 8.5:1 C/R pistons in std or over sizes. I would ask the machine shop to see if std bore pistons would work before having the block bored over. Search on here and you'll see different opinions.

Misc - ARP main studs, new oil pump, new front cover assembly, new front and rear main seals, new water pump, water pump outlet o ring, oil pan gasket, Balance Shaft Eliminator kit, Make sure the shop uses ARP moly lube when assembling ARP hardware. Tell them you want them to do the assembly and make sure they are willing to fix something if they don't do it right! Before the oil pan goes on make sure it does not come into contact with the oil pump pick up screen. Triple check everything. Take your time. Buy all new timing components. Just read around here some more and you can pick up on break in procedures and so on. Just take your time and do things right. Let us know if you have anymore questions, I check this thread every day or so. The more parts you order the less the total bill will be at the machine shop. If you have 3K to spend I think you'll be ok. Just remember take your time and read as much as possible...

Regards,

Jayson

 

[T3rB0]

Wow I just read my last post and did not realize how badly I mispelled half the words in that post and I want to appologize to you guys for that.

(90Laser) I want to thank you so much for your response and opinons on what I should do. It really helped alot being this is my first time doing this. Really I can't thank you enough PS: why shouldn't I bore is .020 over unless it needs it? Wouldn't be better either way?

(Snowboarder) I already have read that post (As I said, I have done a decent amount of research on this but I want people's own personal opinions). Also it is sort of irrelevant to the topic because I never once stated I wanted to do a 1g swap into a 2g and what differs between the two motors. I said i already have a motor from my old totaled car that is in working condition and has a 2g head and 1g bottom (90-92) 6bolt. Thanks for trying to help though.

As for everyone else who reads this I still would love to hear more opinions and combinations of what i should have done at the machine shop and what I should buy being that the motor is out of the car right now.

*I also didn't state that when I did have the car running when I would go from a dead stop and just ease the car into first gear I would get a small puff of smoke from the exhaust. When I would boost the car I would literally cover the whole street with blackish/greyish smoke. I took the turbo off the car and had it rebuilt thinking that it was the turbo causing the problem but it wasn't* Thus leaving me to think that there is something wrong with the internals in the motor which is just another reason i want it completley re-done while I drive around my new car with the 7bolt meantime

 

[marshall13]

As far as the timing goes, spend some money on the good stuff to ensure all this work you are planning to do isn't wasted. I know that all parts wear with time and use, but some good cam gears and a kevlar belt is some good insurance.

 

[snowborder714]

T3rB0 - my post was aimed at dsmtaco, it's just a posted 2 minutes too late to post right after him.

Good luck on the build and keep us posted! I'm very interested in all of this because someday I will be going through the same thing (although with a 2.4).

 

[DSMtaco]

Well i've tried to research as much as possible, but ya cant get it all!

90laserRSfwd - fantastic!!! thank you!

a few more things, i've read that in alot of cases people use their 2G trannys on their 6 bolt swap. But that seems like a bad idea since the mounts are different. 3 on the engine, 1 on the tranny or the opposite. i would like to make this as painless as possible. so would i be better off with a 1G tranny matched with a 6 bolt swap?

Keep in mind i have a GSX, so will any 6 bolt work matched with my 2G GSX tranny, or will i need some 6 bolt and a 1G GSX tranny.

 

[T3rB0]

(Snowborder) Ok sorry i thought you where talking to me with that post.

(dsmtaco) Do me a favor i don't want my thread turning into something else other then i intended. If you want to ask questions about other things. If you could please make a seperate thread about your questions that don't pretain to my topic i'd appreciate it. On the other hand if you want to ask questions that are similar to the topic as for instance questions about your internals you would need for your build or something that would be fine with me thanks

 

[Jrgunn5150]

Wow I just read my last post and did not realize how badly I mispelled half the words in that post and I want to appologize to you guys for that.

(90Laser) I want to thank you so much for your response and opinons on what I should do. It really helped alot being this is my first time doing this. Really I can't thank you enough PS: why shouldn't I bore is .020 over unless it needs it? Wouldn't be better either way?

(Snowboarder) I already have read that post (As I said, I have done a decent amount of research on this but I want people's own personal opinions). Also it is sort of irrelevant to the topic because I never once stated I wanted to do a 1g swap into a 2g and what differs between the two motors. I said i already have a motor from my old totaled car that is in working condition and has a 2g head and 1g bottom (90-92) 6bolt. Thanks for trying to help though.

As for everyone else who reads this I still would love to hear more opinions and combinations of what i should have done at the machine shop and what I should buy being that the motor is out of the car right now.

*I also didn't state that when I did have the car running when I would go from a dead stop and just ease the car into first gear I would get a small puff of smoke from the exhaust. When I would boost the car I would literally cover the whole street with blackish/greyish smoke. I took the turbo off the car and had it rebuilt thinking that it was the turbo causing the problem but it wasn't* Thus leaving me to think that there is something wrong with the internals in the motor which is just another reason i want it completley re-done while I drive around my new car with the 7bolt meantime

You don't want to bore the motor if it doesn't need it for a few reasons. One is cost, it's cheaper not to. BTW they actually would bore it .15, and finish hone the rest to .20 to answer your earlier question. Another reason is overbored motor's run hotter, may not be an issue, but it is a fact. Third reason it you just reduced the future rebuilds by one if you needlessly bore. Any power you pick up is pretty inconsequential, although the unshrouding effect on the valves is pretty nice, but only as a side effect.

Now, as to doing your own work. Obviously (no offense, just stating the facts), you are inexperienced. BUT, you do have to start somewhere, and I would encourage you to take this build on yourself. It's nut's and bolt's, with alot of measuring as well, but still, righty tighty, follow the procedures and you will be fine.

You'll be looking at 700 to 1k for quality machine work on your block, no assembly. BUt, you need to follow a kind of process. Strip your old motor down to the block and drop it off at the machine shop. They will let you know what bore it need's, any decking, and if and how much your crank needs to be cut. Then you can order your pistons, ring's, rods, and bearing's. Drop them off and they will balance the whole thing for you.

Then you are ready to take it all home. But before you go all crazy bolting it together, you'll need some tools you probably don't have right now. Micrometer's, caliper's, a torque wrench, PIston ring filer among them. Also pick up some plastigauge.

Get yourself a manual, and you shouldn't have any trouble really. You will however learn a ton about your motor and how it ticks. Now, as for head porting, leave that for lesson two

 

[snowborder714]

a few more things, i've read that in alot of cases people use their 2G trannys on their 6 bolt swap. But that seems like a bad idea since the mounts are different. 3 on the engine, 1 on the tranny or the opposite. i would like to make this as painless as possible. so would i be better off with a 1G tranny matched with a 6 bolt swap?

Keep in mind i have a GSX, so will any 6 bolt work matched with my 2G GSX tranny, or will i need some 6 bolt and a 1G GSX tranny.

You have to use your 2g tranny no matter what. Yes, any 6 bolt will work mated up to your current tranny.