Building 7 bolt - need details for reliability

[nazthug]

im not so worried about them looking it up aas i am about the differences of it

will i run into ANY problems at all with any of my 99 emissions equipment when it come sto transfering it all back over?

The fact that i have to make the head holes bigger to fit, diferent oil pumps, etc....just kinda bugs me, i want it to be a simple, clean swap to a new fresh block, i dont want to modify 1/2 the car to make it work

 

[1fast97gsx]

It's no the equipment you have to worry about it's the year of the block and head. It must be the same year or newer in California which means if they actually look it up, you're screwed. That's why I suggested the Galant 2.4 bottom end but I don't know if they went past 98 so you might just be screwed all around with a 99.

Or just swap the bottom ends and keep your existing head .... emissions has nothing to do with the bottom end and nobody will ever notice if you are using a different block imo.

 

[turbotsi92]

2 things

1. every motor can walk some just tend to walk more than others. if you are taking a change of a built motor walking why increase your chances. unless you have the money to experiment go with what is known. and if you where experienced and knowledgeable this question would never exist because you would know from research and personal experience.

2. if you are building a motor for 2000.00 it is going to be a really $h!tty job. end of story.

how is building an engine for 2grand going to be sh*tty? I am building mine right now, everything is new except crank and rods, and timing accesories, but everything else is new, and i only have about 1400 in it

 

[4g64GST]

machine work 500
pistons 450
rods 300
bearings 100
head studs 90
timing belt kit 180
crank pully 75
belts for ass. 50
head gasket 90
engine gasket set 150
oil pump 200
water pump 65
lifters 150
valve guides 40


well thats 2440 and that is just what i an think of right now at work.

lets just say with my current g4cs build up I am at 12,000 and have at least 3,000 more to go before I will be close to being happy with it.

you have your way and i have mine.

O and i took out my perfectly fine 7 bolt to do this project

 

[nazthug]

how is building an engine for 2grand going to be sh*tty? I am building mine right now, everything is new except crank and rods, and timing accesories, but everything else is new, and i only have about 1400 in it

man you dsm guys blow this walking thing so out of preportion its rediculous, in that case, everyone building any engine should trip out because any engine can walk

I dont understand, AT ALL, how a built engine has anything to do with crankwalk anymore? The stock ones sometimes walked because of assembly and bearing problems, but if you assemble a new one, with ALL new internals, it has nothing to do with mitsubishi anymore or crankwalk, doesnt it????

I dont get it....if it walks, its 100% the builders fault and no one elses....


On a sidenote, where is the stock egr in a 2g anyways? I know it has one, but for my life, i cant find it,

 

[espinelli]

man you dsm guys blow this walking thing so out of preportion its rediculous, in that case, everyone building any engine should trip out because any engine can walk

I dont understand, AT ALL, how a built engine has anything to do with crankwalk anymore? The stock ones sometimes walked because of assembly and bearing problems, but if you assemble a new one, with ALL new internals, it has nothing to do with mitsubishi anymore or crankwalk, doesnt it????

I dont get it....if it walks, its 100% the builders fault and no one elses....


On a sidenote, where is the stock egr in a 2g anyways? I know it has one, but for my life, i cant find it,

Yup. That's what I'm saying. But everyone will always have a different opinion on this subject. Doesn't make anyone more right or wrong for building a 6 or 7 bolt.

Lets address more important issues. The EGR valve is located on the lower passenger side of the intake mani/head.

 

[4g64GST]

but if you assemble a new one, with ALL new internals, it has nothing to do with mitsubishi anymore or crankwalk, doesnt it????

I think the problem lies in the motor not the assembly. I bet the engineers at mitsu know that motor a lot better than joe blow at X machine shop.

where is the stock egr in a 2g anyways? I know it has one, but for my life, i cant find it,

looking at the motor it comes out of the head at the back left side goes through the intake. someone please correct me if I am wrong

 

[98spydert]

if you assemble a new one, with ALL new internals, it has nothing to do with mitsubishi anymore or crankwalk, doesnt it????

There are those of us who believe it is directly related to the material used to cast the block. Not saying all will walk, but if not assembled religiously to spec and using the proper methods such as fully assembling the bottom end with a tq plate, no matter what internals or bearings you use, the chances of walking sky rocket when thrown together by jo schmoe.

Think of putting the bottom end together perfectly, then tqing down the head studs effectivly tweaking the block slightly due to weak iron. screws the perfect specs and that's the theory.

 

[98spydert]

Or just swap the bottom ends and keep your existing head .... emissions has nothing to do with the bottom end and nobody will ever notice if you are using a different block imo.

In california, it matters but you're right. Chances are no ones going to check the block unless it looks extremly out of place, like the Honda guys with B series motors in their hatches.

 

[nazthug]

but where does the exhuast come from? Where are they getting the source of exhuast ? I ve been stumped about this for a while

usually its off the exhuast somewhere, manifold or something, but not in this car...

 

[1fast97gsx]

but where does the exhuast come from? Where are they getting the source of exhuast ? I ve been stumped about this for a while

usually its off the exhuast somewhere, manifold or something, but not in this car...

there's a port inside the head that gets exhaust ... it then flows out the head and through the intake mani to the egr solenoid. If you have ever pulled an intake manifold off you'd know what I'm talking about. I can take pics of my engine in the stand w/out egr and then my other engine in another stand that still has the egr valve connected if you are still confused how it works.

 

[nazthug]

cool, thanks alot man, no need for pics, i get it now

Like i said, just a random question in the back of my head

Lol

anyways, back to engine buildinng, im in europe now, when i get back, i will have my crank play checked, if it turns out to be perfect(nothing less then perfect) then i figure it isnt gonna walk, cause its got 80000 miles on it, if it checks out, im gonna rip it out this summer and send it out to get built up so i can have a fresh new engine at the end of summer.

Cant wait, i already have a quaife and GSX brakes waiting for me at home right now

 

[WhipmastaFlex]

The fact that i have to make the head holes bigger to fit, diferent oil pumps, etc....just kinda bugs me, i want it to be a simple, clean swap to a new fresh block, i dont want to modify 1/2 the car to make it work

Sorry man, but you are utterly clueless as to how easy it is to drop a 6 bolt into a 2g. Good luck with the rebuild, or at least better luck than mine.

 

[nazthug]

then why does SBR offer a $1300 parts list to make a 6 bolt drop into a 2g

For those that HAVE done it, please chime in and give me some details and advice.

I want it to be a clean job, i dont want to hack things. I rather put my money towards the assembly and machine work

 

[logic]

They revised the crank bearings annd crank, 2 piece now, and i havent really ever heard a 99 4g63 walking yet...do you have any idea how many 98-99's there are out there? I think i heard 1 98 walking,,,thats nowhere near enough evidence

Would you like to come over and measure the end-play on my 72k 1999 7-bolt? I think you'd find it enlightening.

For the record, I had no warning; I happily completed an autocross event, got about a mile from the event site, took a hard left turn, and I heard the ticking. I was just barely able to get the car pulled into a parking lot before the CAS was ground down to nothing.

My 6-bolt 2.4L replacement is being built now. Throw bolt-ons at the 7-bolt if you want, but leave the internals alone; have fun with this engine, and save your money for a proper 6-bolt build-up. Heck, a local fellow here may very well make a 10-second FWD pass on the stock bottom end this weekend (assuming he doesn't blow off another FPR vacuum line) thus proving you don't need expensive internals and machine work to have fun with it.

 

[logic]

then why does SBR offer a $1300 parts list to make a 6 bolt drop into a 2g

You really ought to check out this mailing list:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DSM1gina2g/

Also, you'll probably want to look at http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/ and look for their write-up of a 1g-in-a-2g swap (courtesy of DSMtuners' very own Tevenor) as soon as they finish monkeying around with their website. (It used to be here, but who knows where it'll end up now.)

Consider that if you can grab a relatively complete 6-bolt long-block with most of the "accessories" still attached (stupid things like the oil pan, front case, oil filter housing and water line, etc), you're 99% of the way there. You know why the slowboy kit costs so much? It's basically most of the parts you'd need for a complete timing belt change (belts, gaskets, tensioner, pulleys, water pump, seals if you need them, front case and oil filter housing if the ones you have need replacing), plus an ACT flywheel. Read the list of parts involved...there's no secrets there. You have some minor machining of the motor mount to do; not a big deal. You'll also have a "random misfire" code to deal with, and there are a few choices for you on that score. But overall, it's surprisingly straightforward if you're mechanically inclined enough to pull an engine.

 

[WhipmastaFlex]

then why does SBR offer a $1300 parts list to make a 6 bolt drop into a 2g

For those that HAVE done it, please chime in and give me some details and advice.

I want it to be a clean job, i dont want to hack things. I rather put my money towards the assembly and machine work

FYI buddy, I JUST did it. You ask for advice from people who have done the swap, then dismiss what they tell you and say you want 'a clean job' and dont want to 'hack' anything. Here's what you're 'hacking'.

*Shave a right angle into the front 2g motor mount for water pump clearance.
*Trim timing cover to fit 2g motor mount.
*Cut three wires off the 1g cam angle sensor, 1 for the cam sensor signal, 3 for the +, -, and signal for the crank sensor. Solder into harness going to ECU. Now you can adjust base timing, as well.

To re-use your 2g head (which is what I did so that everything will bolt up for now), just drop it off at the machine shop and they'll bore the passages over 1mm for 1g ARP studs. They charged me $30 for that. Done.

... and that about does it. But if you weren't aware of these things already, maybe the swap isn't for you.

As for Logic, I was in the same boat. No warning. Just lightly shifted from 2nd to 3rd doing maybe 30 mph, and the car died. I'm guessing when I hit the clutch, it moved the crank out, and when it came back in, the crank gear pinched the timing belt, shaved about 18 teeth off the belt, so that the timing belt no longer spun. The rotating assembly rotated from the starter, as did the accessory belts, but the cams never spun. Coils wouldn't fire, Cam Angle Sensor was saying "wtf mate? why aren't the damn cams spinning?" Pulled the top belt cover to check my timing marks, had my dad try to turn it over and watched as the cam gears sat still... never had a more sick feeling in my stomach. End result --- .200" of crankshaft play. With the oil pan off, you could literally see and hear the crank moving back and forth when the clutch pedal was pressed. It was a wonder it didn't kill the plate on the crank angle sensor long before that.

 

[espinelli]

Would you like to come over and measure the end-play on my 72k 1999 7-bolt? I think you'd find it enlightening.

For the record, I had no warning; I happily completed an autocross event, got about a mile from the event site, took a hard left turn, and I heard the ticking. I was just barely able to get the car pulled into a parking lot before the CAS was ground down to nothing.

My 6-bolt 2.4L replacement is being built now. Throw bolt-ons at the 7-bolt if you want, but leave the internals alone; have fun with this engine, and save your money for a proper 6-bolt build-up. Heck, a local fellow here may very well make a 10-second FWD pass on the stock bottom end this weekend (assuming he doesn't blow off another FPR vacuum line) thus proving you don't need expensive internals and machine work to have fun with it.

Hey Logic, I checked your mod list and I'm just wondering how long you've been running with the underdrive crank pulley? By chance did you measure end play before installing the underdrive pulley as well as after? I actually bought the entire set and then decided to not install the underdrive pulley because I believe it can promote crankwalk.

 

[nazthug]

why does a 6 bolt swap cause a random missfire check engine light?

Like i said, im mostly worried about emissions, i dont want anything popping up because of the swap that would make emissions impossible for me

Again, i appriciate all your guys's help, thats why i posted, sorry if i sounded like i was getting cocky

I just need all the info i can get to make the right decision

Will the timing accesorries from the 7 bolt transfer over?

Because i just had my timing belt done, with ALL NEW pulleys and tensioners and idlers, new timing belt and balance shaft belt, and new water pump

Will all these transfer over? If not, can i just buy a timing belt kit for a 6bolt from like prostreet? Thats where i got my 7 bolt kit, it was cheap, like 170 or something with waterpump

What about the oil pump? SHould i get a new one? I also read on some shops website that they will only warranty their engines if you get the billet oil pump gear or something? Whats that about?

I want to get whatever wil make the new engine as reliable as possible, im thinking of even getting that aftermarket stronger timing belt just to be on the safe side

Im just gathering information and trying to answer questions that wil help me do this right

Im fairly mechanically inclined, i pulled the engine on my focus before when i blew it, i pulled the tranny 5 times, installed quaifes, i did all the turbo work on it, i did the standalone and tuned it, i did all the work so far on the eclipse as well(fuel, turbo, clutch, quaife soon, wiring, etc)

So i am good with my hands and i have pretty good knowledge, just trying to learn all the new stuff about the dsm's now that i have one especially,

 

[WhipmastaFlex]

why does a 6 bolt swap cause a random missfire check engine light?

IF it gives a CEL, it throws it because the 2g ECU rely on the crank angle and cam angle sensors to interpret data. If you rig the 1g CAS to act as both signals, it may not satisfy some 2g ECUs. Though, the vfaq says it tends not to bother 97+ 2g DSMs as often, there is a mod to keep the ECU from looking at random misfires. I have a pocketlogger, so I can just clear them as I go. Besides, I can't remember the last time my CEL WASN'T lit.

 

[nazthug]

so a 6 bolt doenst have a one of those sensors?

Hmm...that kinda bothers me, i rather not rewire and rig things like that, i know it may not be a big deal to most, but i've learned alot from my focus as far as rigging goes, and i just want to stray away from it. The simpler it is, the better off it will be in the future.

I'd like to get some more opinion on other people's 7 bolt builds....

When i get back home, im going to check my crank play, if its really really minimum or none, i think that will be my deciding factor, if theres even slight play (like any more then the MINIMUM spec from mitsu) then i will have to rethink building it

But if there's no play after 80000 miles, i think i may just build the 7 bolt

Again, cel lights are no good for me, because 1: its gonna suck at emissions, and 2: its gonna block other cel signals that may come up that i may want to know, and i rather not have any lights at all, again, i know some of you dont mind, but i sorta do, i got rid of the focus to start out new and clean, my focus had all the lights(, standalone) and i want something simpler

I will run my stock 7 bolt at least until summer, at which point i will decide which rebuild way to go

I appriciate all the advice, keep it coming, especially guys with experience with their builds

 

[lowridin2g]

What is it like less than 15% that walk???

almost all 7 bolts will walk its just a matter of time

 

[logic]

Hey Logic, I checked your mod list and I'm just wondering how long you've been running with the underdrive crank pulley? By chance did you measure end play before installing the underdrive pulley as well as after? I actually bought the entire set and then decided to not install the underdrive pulley because I believe it can promote crankwalk.

When the pulley went on, end-play was fine (it went on during a timing belt change and balance shaft elimination, so it was a good time to check.). I didn't check it again until it walked.

For reference, if anyone's curious: 9000 miles beforehand, the fidanza, 2600 and stainless steel clutch line went on (and the clutch reservoir came off). 3000 before, the underdrive pulley went on and the balance shafts came out (along with new oil pump, water pump, tbelt-related stuff, etc). 100 miles or so beforehand, I replaced the clutch master and slave cylinders to eliminate the ghost pedal I was suffering from. 2 miles beforehand, I beat the living crap out of it at autocross. I've drawn no conclusions from that, but it might be helpful data for someone.

Anyway, back to nazthug's questions: no, a 6-bolt doesn't have a crank sensor. There's a pretty straightforward modification you can make to use the cam angle sensor as a feed for both signals, or you can eliminate the code completely with something like DSMLink.

As for emissions: yes, if you get the random misfire code, you'll need to find a way to take care of it before going for emissions testing.

Another route that some folks here haven't mentioned is the idea of building a 2.4L 7-bolt. While I still inherently distrust the setup, I really haven't seen any data that suggests that they are as prone to walking as a 2.0L 7-bolt. Your cost goes up a bit with this approach, but you also gain half a liter of displacement. Just throwing that out as another option, although I really don't believe there's been enough deployment of this engine setup to be able to say it's "crankwalk-free"; at this point, I'd venture to guess that there are very few people with 60-100k miles on their 7-bolt 2.4.

My final point, and then I'm done. Your stated goal is 350-400whp. You don't need to build your bottom-end for that; as I said earlier, a local fellow with a stock 7-bolt bottom end, a turbo larger than your head, and a bit of nitrous, will probably be running high 10s this weekend (11.17 is his current best, without something dramatic going wrong). I can't tell you how to spend your money, but I really think you'd see a better return on your investment by just leaving the bottom-end alone, and spending that money on any number of other things (head, turbo, etc).

 

[nazthug]

What is it like less than 15% that walk???

almost all 7 bolts will walk its just a matter of time

thats not a smart analysis

in that case, EVERY ENGINE IN THE WORLD WILL walk 100% all the time at SOME time

Obviously, here's my scientific analysis:

EVERY ENGINE WILL ALWAYS FAIL SOMETIME...., thats not saying much

This is why you rebuild, use new bearings, new machining, good assembly, and it should last another good 100000 miles or so....


Obviously, you cant expect a turbocharged engine that is pushed hard daily, to last 400,000 miles

Im surprised to HELL that there are people here who have over 130,000miles on a turbocharged car, with mods, which is surely driven fairly hard, and still runing, that already shows how strong these engines are

 

[WhipmastaFlex]

thats not a smart analysis

in that case, EVERY ENGINE IN THE WORLD WILL walk 100% all the time at SOME time

Not EVERY ENGINE suffers from the same piss poor design as our beloved 7-bolt 4g63t... while it is POSSIBLE for ANY motor to walk, your point doesn't hold up, as you don't see the F-body forums with "Help!!! ticking coming from my 350 and the clutch pedal won't come back up!!!"

My advice, like logic said, which was rather logical (had to) is bolt whatever you can onto the 7-bolt if your goal is 350-400whp. Stock parts can handle that much, and if you blow it, then you have a legitamite reason to rebuild. At 78k miles my 7-bolt had 172psi compression across the board. Sure, it's nice to have a built motor, but it's not necessary for the goal you're shooting for.