2G Broken suspension spring?

[djailer]

I noticed my right rear was squeaking every time I hit a bump and checked it out. The spring is broken about 1 turn from the top. It seems to drive OK but I do need to replace it. When I bought it the guy told me he lowered it 3". I can't find any kits that go more than 2 but it is pretty low so maybe a combination of stuff?

Anyway, I like the setup and have no idea how to be sure I don't mess anything up. Do the springs have a make/part number on them? The shocks are Tokico and I think I remember seeing a label on them but I am not sure how or what to buy to replace the springs. Any guidance?

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Take pictures and/or find out what you have. The springs should have a part number, or a stamp or spot of green/red paint to help identify them.

It sounds like you may be using the Tokico kit which includes Tokico springs. No one drops a DSM 3" so you can just ignore that bit. I'm just guessing that you have Tokico springs but if you do they're around a 1.75" to 2" drop. Definitely on the low side as far as performance is concerned but I hear the ride is quite nice.

It's not uncommon to a break a spring, but I've not seen very much of that on here before. I'm interested to see what you've got going on.

 

[jmartinez1228]

He could have purchased a 2" drop spring and cut the springs from there. Seen a few honda kids do this.

 

[upgrading_86]

Yes hopefully its not a cut spring but besides squeaking hiss the ride if it bumpy the springs might be cut but ad PieEyedPiper said never seen someone drop a dsm 3 inches

 

[PieEyedPiper]

He could have purchased a 2" drop spring and cut the springs from there. Seen a few honda kids do this.

It's unlikely that someone cut his rear springs and then installed both halves.

 

[unplugged]

post a pic of the springs

 

[djailer]

Here is a view of the spring. I found the markings on one of them. Turns out both springs are broken - about 1 1/2 turns from the top. You can see it in first photo. I have also attached one of the shock, in case that helps at all. I assume these are coilovers?

These wheels - actually all 4 - are way out of camber as well. I used the vfaq home adjustment method for the rears- using 4 - 3/16 thick fender washers on each bolt. According to the plumb line method I got it to adjust from 5.2/3.5 degrees left and right to 2.14/2.76 degrees.

Using Excel -

=degrees(atan(measured distance difference/distance between measurements))

http://www.negative-camber.org/jam149/technical/alignment.html

Progress I hope. I used 4 washers and really don't want to put more on to get the other 2 degrees. Now what? Or should I care? It shouldn't erase the inside of my tires so quickly now.

I need to get a pair of adjustable ball joints and get them on the fronts. I didn't measure those...forgot. Those only adjust up to about 2 degrees from what I can find so if the front is as bad off as the backs....any suggestions?

 

[PieEyedPiper]

You have skunk2 springs and adjustment collars. 448lb/in up front and 336lb/in the rear. Sounds bumpy with all of 1" worth of travel! I guess we know why they broke!
You'll need to throw away the springs and likely the collars, too. The classifieds should be able to net you a pair of rear springs.

As for your rear camber, I'm having difficulties following your process..and result.
You might shoot for -1.0* or so of camber in the rear. A little more won't hurt and a touch less might be nice for a DD, but that's a fine ballpark. You will also want those values to be rather equal, left to right.

 

[djailer]

Bumpy only starts to describe it. As far as the process went I followed a guide I found which said to tape a string with a weight on it to the fender, run it over something wide enough to let it hang down freely and center it over the wheel hub. Measure the distance from the rim to the string at the top and bottom of the rims. Also measure the distance between the two points - top and bottom. Then plug the difference between the top and bottom measurements as well as that between the two points into the formula. Not meant to be exact but I think it gets me in the ballpark.

Does this drawing help?

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I've not tried that method but it seems sound at first glance. JToby and others, have suggested that the best way to calculate how thick of a spacer you need to use by measuring all of the control arms and doing a little trig. I never took this road because I always felt that if I measured anything, even slightly off, the error would be multiplied in the result and I'd be going no where fast. I've always used trial and error but that gets spendy in alignments.

"...I'd try 3 washers in the rear (pending on how thick they are) and see what your camber is. Here's my experiences with washers that are 0.10" thick:

No spacers on the rear control arm: -1.5* camber
0.60" of spacer on the rear control arm: -0.2* camber"

With my prokits I used around 5 fender washers. I use those because of the surface area even if they are soft and kinda thin.


YouTube - Camber Kit Install

Hopefully some of that information will be useful for when you get new springs on. Other's opinions may vary but I wouldn't be too keen on driving it the way it is.

 

[djailer]

It seems that my .75" worth of washers got me almost 3* (from 5.2 to 2.14) on the left but the same thickness only got .75* on the right(3.5-2.76).

Trig and I never met so I relied solely on copying the formula I found, but I found pretty much the same one in several places - ^forum brand X - name omitted^

I don't mind too much trial and error - 89 cents at Lowes for 8 washers isn't bad. (I used high grade bolts though and didn't get them there!) I just don't want to overdo it and have my wheels fall off because I used too many washers. The vfaq mentioned that 6 was about the max.

It is hard to guess given the wide range I seemed to get. One more on the left might get me close to 1.5* but it looks like four more on the right would only get me to about 2*. And that puts me at eight washers per - above the minimum recommended dose. Hopefully I am missing something that someone else will catch.

I am almost afraid to measure the fronts.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Well I don't think there's anything you're really missing except that trying to align broken gear that puts the car too low is likely going to have it's challenges. Let us know what happens when you get it all fixed up!

 

[djailer]

Are the broken springs messing up my calculations? That could be why the numbers don't make much sense.

Now for some school. Dumb question but how did you determine I had 1" of travel? And what were the numbers - 448/336 lbs? What kind of specs should I be looking for as replacements to keep the setup similar - or maybe it shouldn't be?? Why replace the collar - 'cause the spring has been bouncing on it maybe?

Thanks for your patience.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Are the broken springs messing up my calculations? That could be why the numbers don't make much sense.

Now for some school. Dumb question but how did you determine I had 1" of travel? And what were the numbers - 448/336 lbs? What kind of specs should I be looking for as replacements to keep the setup similar - or maybe it shouldn't be?? Why replace the collar - 'cause the spring has been bouncing on it maybe?

Thanks for your patience.

2g's are notorious for having limited travel from the factory and then we all like to lower them, further decreasing available travel before hitting the bump stops, or worse. My 1" estimate, was just some sarcasm. But it's scary realistic sarcasm.

The numbers I quoted you are the spring rates of the front and rear springs. The 8 and the 6 at the end of your part numbers indicate the spring rates, 8kg/mm and 6kg/mm or whatever the metric way is. I converted the values to lbs/in. since that is more meaningful.

Your current springs rates are a generalization by skunk2 with no actual investigation on their part. The rates are more suited to a Honda or a 1G.

The spring rates are different because the suspension design is completely different between 2Gs and 1G/Evo.

2G front suspension design gives a .75 motion ratio, and .8 in the rear. 1G/Evo front suspension design results in a .95/1.0 motion ratio. I can't quote the rear of a 1G or an Evo because I don't know it - the front is easy because it's a McStrut, so the motion ratio has to be within a whisker of 1.

2Gs are also 200+ pounds lighter, have a lower CG and a more stable roll axis, the lack of which conspire against the Evo.

We are all attacking spring rates in the same way (assuming intelligently researched) - we're all working on the wheel rate, not the spring rate. The wheel rate is all that matters, the spring rate simply incidental.

Charles

Furthermore, your springs are broken, likely increasing the rate even further in the rear. I would be more keen on pairing 350lb/in rear springs with something like 700# up front. The bottom line is that those rates are rubbish for your car.

Here are some knowns:

2G AWD coil spring rates and lowering amounts
Upon shopping for a new set of lowering springs, I compiled this little list of spring rates and lowering amounts. So, I figured I should share it with you all.

*Note – This information is represented to the best of my knowledge. Most of the numbers were gathered from reputable vendors and/or the manufacturer. If there is any information that needs to be edited or added, please PM me.



95-96 OEM Stock 2G AWD
Front: 265 #
Rear: 162 # (+/- 8)

97-99 OEM Stock 2G AWD
Front: 246 #
Rear: 151 #

H&R (Race spring) (FWD and AWD share the same rates)
2.0"F, 1.75"R lowering
Front: 430 #
Rear: 260 #

H&R (Sport spring)
1.7"F, 1.4"R lowering
They would not disclose spring rates for these. They explained that there are too many variables to accurately use spring rates. I'm assuming these are comparable to the Sprints.

Eibach ProKit
1.3" lowering
Front: 330 #
Rear: 160 #

Suspension Techniques
1.2" lower
Front: 200 #
Rear: 160 #

Megan Racing
2.0" lowering
Front: 335 #
Rear: 250 #

Eibach Sportline
1.7" lowering
Front: 286 #
Rear: 146 #

Intrax
1.8"F, 1.7"R lowering
Front: 249 #
Rear: 143 #

Tein S-Tech
1.3"F, 1.2"R lowering
Front: ? (mixed results)
Rear: ? (mixed results)

Sprint
2.0" or 1.5" lowering (optional)
They would not disclose spring rate information in fear of other manufacturer spin offs. They informed me that they are typically 20-30% stiffer than stock.

You could add in skunk2's to that list now and see how "out of whack" your rates are. Something to note, however, is that almost all of these springs are all very conservative with their rates. Likely fine for stock ride height but few of these options actually provide enough rate to keep you off the bump stops.
This is where adjustability comes in. If you purchased Ground Controls for your HP's (You'd likely want to get lowish rates to keep those HP's happy) you could choose your spring rates and then manually adjust ride height so that you're not running out of travel, etc.

In your shoes, I'd either put stock springs on it or pick up some prokits or their equivalent and throw away those skunk2 collars and springs. Front and rear. The collars look pretty junked, bent, dinged and cracked? in your photos. I'd just not mess around with those cheap collars since you'd have to monkey around a bit getting springs that would fit, etc. And that's if they were in re-useable condition. You'll notice, anyone here that has collars, likely has GC collars.

 

[djailer]

Thanks for the info. I wasn't shocked by the 1" guess....sometimes it feels like less!!

I will be looking to hook up with something in line with your recc then. Proceeding to junk the current junk and get something more fitting. I will post when I figure out what that is going to be. I have some studying to do.

Thanks lots

 

[djailer]

Got the Pro-Kits installed. I also took some pics along the way. If this makes a decent DIY post feel free to move it/use it!

I started with the top...I have a strut tower brace and was worried that there might be some torque on it...nope. 2 14mm nuts came off with a little muscle. I popped the brace support off the top easy enough. I had supported the suspension below so when I took those two nuts off it just dropped enough to free up. The 17mm bolt on the back of the bottom shock mount was very tight but came loose with some help from a very heavy hammer. And lots of WD-40. I had the foresight to loosen that before I loosened the top nuts!!!

Once I had the shock assembly out it was easy to disassemble it. Both springs were broken so I had no worries about having to drop over to Autozone and borrow a compressing tool. I found that a crescent wrench held the small, center piece while a 17mm turned the nut. Bad news right off the bat...no wonder I was having problems with the LR. The shock was totally toast...nothing in it but some old water. You should've seen how beat up those old coil overs were!! Gone.

Re-Assembly was easy enough. I was able to get the new spring on the shock, attach the top and tighten the nut - again - without using spring compressor. One shock was bad so no surprise but the other one seemed OK and I mounted that up as well. I noticed that you need to be aware of the bumper-stop. It has to mount all the way over the raised spot on the shock piston rod. The top of that shoulder goes all the way through and should be level with the top of the stop. I also remembered to line up the end of the spring with the notch in the shock collar.

Once I got the spring mounted I attached the top nuts and tightened them -32ft/lbs - or 340 in/lbs. I was able to lever the bottom of the good shock up to the mount and slip it on. That bad one, of course, slid right on. Bottom mount bolt = 71ft/lbs - 780 in/lbs. - 'cause that is the only torque wrench I have

The good side seems to ride almost 2" higher than before but the ride is no longer tooth-rattling. Now I just need a new set of shocks and I am ready for the next surprise.