Base log for first tune (fresh 2G piston's / 6blt 1G)

[90gst_sean]

Rpm Tps Tima o2-r Knck INJP
4843.75 10.20 23.00 0.90 0.00 1.54
3937.50 50.20 44.00 0.84 0.00 9.73
3687.50 91.76 24.00 0.86 0.00 15.87
4281.25 100.00 18.00 0.86 5.00 17.41
4812.50 100.00 15.00 0.86 11.00 19.71
5468.75 100.00 14.00 0.82 18.00 20.74
6062.50 49.02 12.00 0.80 30.00 3.07
4500.00 9.80 37.00 0.80 0.00 2.30
3875.00 100.00 30.00 0.84 0.00 15.10
4062.50 100.00 18.00 0.88 5.00 16.38
4281.25 100.00 16.00 0.86 12.00 17.41
4468.75 100.00 15.00 0.86 11.00 18.18
4687.50 100.00 15.00 0.84 16.00 19.71
4937.50 100.00 12.00 0.84 15.00 20.99
5125.00 100.00 12.00 0.82 28.00 22.27
5218.75 100.00 7.00 0.80 33.00 21.76
5312.50 100.00 7.00 0.37 43.00 20.99
5312.50 55.29 5.00 0.02 43.00 1.54
4562.50 9.80 33.00 0.78 1.00 1.28

I see the bad knock and have DSMLink on the way. Any other thought? It started to cut out at the end and after seeing just how bad it was; its a little scarry...

I hope these 2G pistons turn out to be worth all the trouble when its all tuned properly. It seems to be a growing trend, I'm afraid a lot of people just think; second gen parts must be better. My self included. I research it before I bought them, but didn't quite under stand just how hard it was going to be to tune for 'em, Not to mention being detrimental to my engine in the mean time.

 

[Quasimondo]

How much boost are you pushing? That looks very bad. If you still have that log, can you post the injector pulse width too?

 

[90gst_sean]

Stock boost 10-12 psi. One second on the pulse width...

 

[Quasimondo]

This is with the 550's?

 

[90gst_sean]

no, I'm afraid I forgot to change my profile. I had to pull them because my dsmlink was installed in a 91+ ECU and i drive a 90. I had sent the unit back to link to be looked over and now have it in the mail on its way back here along with a teach translator to install it correct.
I added the new numbers to the first post if you want to look.

... It looks like you disappeared. We were off to such a good start.

 

[Quasimondo]

Rpm Tps Tima o2-r Knck INJP
4843.75 10.20 23.00 0.90 0.00 1.54
3937.50 50.20 44.00 0.84 0.00 9.73
3687.50 91.76 24.00 0.86 0.00 15.87
4281.25 100.00 18.00 0.86 5.00 17.41 62%
4812.50 100.00 15.00 0.86 11.00 19.71 80%
5468.75 100.00 14.00 0.82 18.00 20.74 95%
6062.50 49.02 12.00 0.80 30.00 3.07
4500.00 9.80 37.00 0.80 0.00 2.30
3875.00 100.00 30.00 0.84 0.00 15.10
4062.50 100.00 18.00 0.88 5.00 16.38
4281.25 100.00 16.00 0.86 12.00 17.41 62%
4468.75 100.00 15.00 0.86 11.00 18.18 68%
4687.50 100.00 15.00 0.84 16.00 19.71 77%
4937.50 100.00 12.00 0.84 15.00 20.99 86%
5125.00 100.00 12.00 0.82 28.00 22.27 95%
5218.75 100.00 7.00 0.80 33.00 21.76 95%
5312.50 100.00 7.00 0.37 43.00 20.99 93%
5312.50 55.29 5.00 0.02 43.00 1.54
4562.50 9.80 33.00 0.78 1.00 1.28

I wanted to see what your injectors were doing, so I calculated the duty cycle (Injector Duty Cycle = (RPM * IPW)/1200). I'm not liking how that looks, but I think the high duty cycles are a second issue that might be from a boost leak causing a high MAF reading.

What do you have your fuel pressure regulator set at?

 

[90gst_sean]

yes yes yes, until today I'd been driving with the hugest boost leak at my PCV. I just plugged that and ran my leaky valve to my recirculated catch can until i can get an OEM PCV.

I still have boost leaks I know because even after the pcv fix i could only hold 7 psi. I had to stop working for the night and will pick up today once the sun comes up.

My fuel pressure should be 39 if its were I left it.

I know with 2G pistons you have to be able to limit timing with say... dsmlink

So looking at your numbers (ThankYouVeryMuch) I'm running out of fuel!!!

Maybe the fuel was 38... It was about .5psi over stock.

 

[Quasimondo]

Once you get the leaks plugged up, make another run. If the leaks were that bad, it's possible that it overworked the turbo to the point that it was pushing nothing but hot air which would contribute to the knock counts.

Are you still on the stock fuel pump? Rewired? If you don't see any significant change, increase the fuel pressure to 43 psi and make another run.

 

[andymoraitis]

Once you get the leaks plugged up, make another run. If the leaks were that bad, it's possible that it overworked the turbo to the point that it was pushing nothing but hot air which would contribute to the knock counts.

The other downside is that leaks will prevent the ECU from seeing airflow over 2.1 g/rev and will keep the timing high as a result. Bad stuff all around.

Armando: On a related note, do you know if the 1G ECU caps timing above 2.1 g/rev like the 2G ECU does? If so what is the max timing allowed without an ancillary device like an AFC or MAFT affecting it? I know the 2G ECU peaks at 16 degrees but always wondered about the 1G.

 

[90gst_sean]

I was out at the eclipse going to test the fuel pressure but dropped my fitting (my only one) down the back side of the engine on the drivers side against the fire wall. I did nit give up though... did you know that is the one spot you can not get to no matter how well you know your car.

well I found it, I pulled it though the wheel well after jacking it up and turning all the way. So I will wash my hands and be back in a minute with my real fuel pressure!!!!

 

[90gst_sean]

It's reading 43psi at the FPR, turning the pump on with a bridge wire from the engine bay.

Good thing I checked. It was set at 38, but now that I think about it; I do remember giving it an extra little turn after taking the emissions test and the little man said it may be running lean.

After I sleep for a bit, I will do more boost fix'in. Its 5 am here in Seattle and I have yet to sleep.

Any thing I should start with first thing besides the boost leak?

Quote:Armando: On a related note, do you know if the 1G ECU caps timing above 2.1 g/rev like the 2G ECU does? If so what is the max timing allowed without an ancillary device like an AFC or MAFT affecting it? I know the 2G ECU peaks at 16 degrees but always wondered about the 1G.:Quote

Mister fancy pants over here... Give me a week Andy, I'll have some fancy pants too,

 

[Quasimondo]

The other downside is that leaks will prevent the ECU from seeing airflow over 2.1 g/rev and will keep the timing high as a result. Bad stuff all around.

Armando: On a related note, do you know if the 1G ECU caps timing above 2.1 g/rev like the 2G ECU does? If so what is the max timing allowed without an ancillary device like an AFC or MAFT affecting it? I know the 2G ECU peaks at 16 degrees but always wondered about the 1G.

I did some checking, and it looks like the 1G ecu goes up to 2.06

http://users.wpi.edu/~ktarry/dsmtech/dsmromedit.html#timing map

 

[andymoraitis]

Sean: My pants aren't that fancy since I'm a working man, but they are kinda big since I'm fat enough to sweat on relatively cool days.

Armando: Thank you for the link, but I was wondering about the raw value at or above 2.06 g/rev. What is it something like 20 degrees assuming 5 degree base timing? If I'm off here, please let me know.

 

[Quasimondo]

I think it can go a bit higher. I checked some old logs and I had timing go as far as 22 degrees.

 

[andymoraitis]

I think it can go a bit higher. I checked some old logs and I had timing go as far as 22 degrees.

Thanks Mondo. I always wondered what the timing cap on the highest load map was. I appreciate the help and information.

Andy

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Pardon my interruption, but can one of you point me to a resource that covers "2.1g/rev and peak 16 degrees"? I can't find that information anywhere in the tech guides or FAQs and I'd like to learn about it. Thanks.

 

[andymoraitis]

I actually received that information from Jeff Oberholtzer of DSM Chips. I had asked him about airflow relative to timing when we were running my first set of chips and that's what he passed along. Finding source information for 2G code seems to be pretty difficult as opposed to the 1G however.

Here's some additional information from Kevin Jewer's tech pages:

"With a 2g ECU the highest load map is used when you get over 2.1 g/rev airflow. Timing will reach 10 degrees by 5k rpm, and will peak at 16-17 degrees at 7000 rpm. Intake temps above 84 degrees F or below 34 degrees will cost you one degree of timing. Coolant temps over 206 degrees will cost you 1 degree, and over 226 or so will cost you 2 degrees. Armed with this information, you can see why getting onto this high load map would be advantageous. Anywhere below 2.1 g/rev there is no way to know what target timing is without using DSMlink. But at anything over 2.1 it remains the same and you know what the ECU is shooting for. Anything less is obviously due to knock."

Since my chip is custom, it runs a max of 8 degrees of timing above 2.1 g/rev which follows with the logic that either a chip, standalone or Link can control your peak timing map when you hit the highest airflow tables.

Let me know if that helps.

 

[Quasimondo]

g/rev = grams of airflow per revolution. It's the ecu's measurement of engine load. Google up that complete term, you'll find some interesting stuff written up.

 

[andymoraitis]

g/rev = grams of airflow per revolution.

Jeez I could have saved myself tons of time by typing that instead of the novel above...

 

[yokotabrat]

A little off the main topic, but Andy if you're still interested, here are the last two timing map load levels for a 1g according to my notes:

16 16 19 20 20 25 25 26 21
15 15 13 17 18 19 23 24 19

This is from 3k to 7k in 500 rpm increments. This is the e931 code base that most of us use for modifying.

Bert

 

[andymoraitis]

A little off the main topic, but Andy if you're still interested, here are the last two timing map load levels for a 1g according to my notes:

16 16 19 20 20 25 25 26 21
15 15 13 17 18 19 23 24 19

This is from 3k to 7k in 500 rpm increments. This is the e931 code base that most of us use for modifying.

Bert

Thanks for the post Bert. We're definitely straying, but it's pretty relevant to the original poster's issues. You have a pretty nasty drop at the end. I'm just wondering if you're knocking up a storm or if you simply let off at that point.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

Thanks for the info, I'll have to study up on that more.

 

[90gst_sean]

Thanks for the post Bert. We're definitely straying, but it's pretty relevant to the original poster's issues. You have a pretty nasty drop at the end. I'm just wondering if you're knocking up a storm or if you simply let off at that point.

Andy, when you say let off; you mean let off the gas? At the end of the above posted run, just before I got off the throttle, the engine started to cut out a bit; got real choppy.

This is why I'm reluctant to make any more hard runs, until I can seriously address my boost leaks.

Are we thinking these leaks are to blame for my knock, or could there be more going on? Keeping in mine my 2G pistons, and no timing controle... yet. I just got my DSMLink ECU back from Dave Mertz.

I'll be playing with that tonight. Hopefully I'll be able to get it running my '90 Eclipse, after the pin swaps and a little Oberholtzer magic.

Sean

 

[andymoraitis]

Sean,

Sorry about that. I was talking about Bert's short log that he posted above to show max timing above 2.06 g/rev on the 1G timing map.

We'll need another log once you get the timing and boost leaks under control, but you're on the right track by addressing both issues since both can create the symptoms you're experiencing on their own. Combine them and the effects are greatly magnified.

 

[yokotabrat]

Andy, I must have misunderstood you as well. My post above actually shows the last two load levels of the 1g timing map directly from the ecu, instead of from a log. Figured I would clarify that.