Baer Track 13" or TCE Wilwood FSL 13"

[c5chris]

Originally posted by Todd TCE
I won't rock the boat on rules about vendor posts, many of you know me anyhow (is that good or bad?? ) , but I will debug a comment above.

Porsche rotors are NOT cast with holes in them! This is a great urban myth. They are drilled and chamfered like all the others. This from a Brembo tech who I was in conversation with some time ago. Apparently even they get a kick out of this rumor!

Really???

The Porsche Calipers – even though they are made by Brembo, have much larger bolts (12mm vs. 8mm for the Brembo) – thereby preventing any caliper flex – even under repeated heavy braking.

Porsche Rotors are cross drilled (during casting) – not by actual drilling. This method prevents spider cracks around the vent holes in heavy heat conditions that causes other cross drilled rotors to start failing.

The Porsche rotors have a phenomenal ability to shed heat, so much so, that if you use Race Pads with this kit, you have to monitor your brake temperature to see if you want to BLOCK your brake cooling duct. Otherwise you brakes will be running so cool, you will not achieve the optimum temperature that your race pads require for proper braking.

 

[Todd TCE]

I don't doubt the bolts, and the heat shedding has little to do with the holes but rather the mass of the rotor. Holes alone won't 'cool' a rotor. Granted; cooler may well be better.

As for the holes, I don't follow the drilling during casting comment, perhaps prior to heat treat is what you meant? And chamfered too.

Here are some exerpts from a conversation I had in part with a Brembo engineer.




I work for Brembo. All Porshe rotors, with the exception of the Ceramic, are cast and machined by Brembo. I am not sure at which plant the rotors are cast, but they are Brembo parts. Porsche only does their ceramic rotors in house. For ceramics, we use our own technology, Ceramic Composite Matrix (CCM), on applications such as the Enzo and 360 Challenge Stradale.
********************
Yes, we have a plant in Ottobrun, Germany.

As for them being drastically different, what are you refering to? The X-drilling? The pillar design? I have a 996 C4 wheel end assembly on my desk, makes an amusing paper weight, and there is nothing in the rotor design that strikes me as radically different. Often, things such as pillar design and x-drill patterns are specific to a certain customer, and that may be the difference. But, I have asked around the office, and with the sole exception of the ceramic rotor, Porsche uses Brembo exclusively.

The only other thing I can think of, is if you bought a kit, you got the Brembo caliper and a non-factory rotor? Thats pure speculation, as I don't know where you got your kit.
*******************
That is the Brembo rotor. Porsche (and most OEM's for that matter) require us to add part number to the edge. The rotor from the 996 wheel end on my desk has the exact same pillar design, with the half vanes spaced between the full vanes. You are correct that the Ferrari and others use a different pillar design. That was why I asked, and mentioned that designs are often spec'd specifically for a single customer. In this case, I believe Porsche rotors are the only ones we cast using that particular vane design.

With respect to the x-drilled holes into/through the vanes, that is again a Porsche exclusive item. You are correct that most of our rotors don't drill through the vane itself.

However, one intersting item is that all of our X-drilled holes are exactly that....drilled.....even the Porsche ones. Its a bit of an urban legend that Porsche "casts-in their holes" for strength. Truth is, when I started with Brembo I thought the same thing. I mentioned it to our Italian resident Applications Engineer. I was kinda surprised myself. He laughed and added, "People seriously think we cast in all of the holes? Wow, I'd love to see the mold for that! No, actually they are all drilled and chamfered post-casting. "

I wish I had a digital camera handy to snap some pics of the one on my desk for you, but my boss took the office camera with him to the auto show in Frankfurt.

Hope it may add some to my comment.
I also wish I'd saved the three inch section I pulled off the drain cover last week at Road Atlanta, off a Porsche. And cracked ritght through the holes....At least they kept it off the wall! ( I was gridding another class at the time if finding it)

 

[tqlla]

Originally posted by Todd TCE
Hmm.
Rear kits?

I think your best bet is the twin piston off the rear of the 3000GT.

I was going to try and get that to work. the Rear 3000GT Dual Piston calipers will bolt straight up to the Eclipse. According to my calculations, it would give 11.6 inches of rotor clearance. So all we would really need is a VR4 2 Piston caliper and 11.5 inch rotors. No outher mounting hardware(maybe brake lines).

i wanted to pick up AEMs 11.5 inch rotors.. until I found out that they were not vented.

A 1G 3000GT VR4 single piston gives 10.7 inches. And according to my calculations, the NA 3000GT rear rotors/pistons should fit no problem(10 inches vented).

 

[Defiant]

Originally posted by NDgsx

Now lets talk about them and why they might larger rotors or different calipers. There are TWO reasons to go with a larger rotor. Number one is to get a larger heat sink, because you are generating too much heat for the current rotor size. The second is to generate more braking torque given the same line pressure and piston area, that's because you increased the length of your lever arm.

You left out the third: to fill the space behind a larger, spidery wheel. I'd doubt that one in five DSM brake conversion customers do much consideration beyond looks and price.

 

[Todd TCE]

mmm, wine country....

How about a combo deal of sorts?

The 3000GT caliper and my hat/rotor package?

No notes in front of me now, but I think the rear rotor on that car is .700-.800 thick and I can match that. In the 11.? size or whatever. Larger will be a problem for bolt mounting however.

And don't overlook the floater either, it's the same piston area.

Anyone who has a caliper they'd like to 'share' with me I see some development here.

 

[tqlla]

Unfortunately, All I have right now are the 1G 3000GT VR4 brake calipers(10.7 inches of clearance). If I were doing a rear brake upgrade, I know I would want the 2G VR4 2Piston 11.6 inch brake combo.

I have been looking for the 2G VR4 Calipers, if I find it, I can probably loan it away

 

[TSiAWD666]

Talk about a thread hijack...

That's great to know that the two-piston vr-4 calipers are compatible. Now my mission is to track down Todd a pair so he can get me a rotor that will work

I have another question for you regarding your front kits. The widest rotor I believe offered for your 2g eclipse kits is 1.1". There are other companies that sell them with 1.25" and wider. Basically all I'd be getting from the wider rotors would be better heat dissipation, and increased unsprung weight... Seeing as I might choose to make that compromise, why don't you offer anything larger? I never really see any justification in brake system specifications (other than wheel fitment and piston sizing to match stock master cylinders). I do know from personal experience that with the greater speeds achieved by upgrading the power in my car that my stock 2g brake system doesn't seem to be able to cope with the heat from extended driving sessions (like open track events and such), and don't feel as easy to use as my friend's Stillen brakes (13x1.25 rotors, 4 piston AP Racing calipers, who knows what pads...). Ignoring effects on unsprung weight I'd imagine I'd want the biggest brakes I could fit, assuming I can consistently generate the heat necessary to keep them at the proper operating temps (I see that as a speed issue, direclty correlating to the power in the car for getting everything up to speed, hehe). Hmm... so yeah, my question is, what were the factors that led to the design of the largest "Road Race" kit you offer?

 

[Todd TCE]

Man, I'm sorry. No hi-jack intended. Just all the talk of rears and those calipers had my wheels turning...!

To answer the question;
The reason for the 1.10 was that this rotor is a nice compromise of mass, caliper options and most important: fit. The rotor uses a different hat (1G hat on a 2G, or new hat on a 1G) that negates the changes of the total width of the package.

However when you place a wider rotor in there the clearance to the wheel become much less. General rule is that the increase in width is off set by about half that to the wheel. Meaning if the rotor goes up by 1/2' the clearance goes down by about 1/4" Not exact, but close. Give me a fax number and I can send you the fit chart I'm working on too.

Another issue is the ability to mount the the calipers to the spindle. Shifiting a tab mount caliper out board makes it more difficult to place the adapter plate between the parts. Like taking the meat out of the sandwhich. The don't line up or you have to 'reverse mount' the caliper as I do on the SHO. The alternative is a radial mount caliper with bracket. Price goes up a lot now too.

The mass of the 1.10 is proving to be ample for the RR kits for those using it. Short of running Long Beach there should be a good balance of weight to mass to keep it all working well. Also, pad choice effects thtis; don't pick a street pad for the track and exceed the temp range.

I can do a wider rotor, in fact have on at the shop for a 3000GT kit I'm finishing, 13x1.25 but it now requires a different caliper too. The mix and match thing has its limitations at times. All anyone has to do is ask. Costs vary depending upon the plan.

Hope this answers some of it. Gotta run!

 

[TSiAWD666]

Can your 13" brake kit support multiple width rotors? I.e. could I get a 1.1" and replace it with a 1.25" should I find it necessary down the line?

Also, as it's not clear on the site... does your currently available rear upgrade for the 2g keep the parking brake? Though I'm sure it's a long shot, any chance of creating an actual emergency/cable brake that uses a seperate caliper?

 

[Todd TCE]

To a point yes.
The use of a 1.10 could be done up later to a 1.25 but there are a few issues. First there will be some movement of the rotor inboard and this could be a control arm problem, and mount one. The standoffs would be greater for example.

Next the fit of the rotor alone won't do you a 1.25 kit. You'd need a 1.25 caliper too....Didn't think about that did you? The only way around this is to use the 1.25 caliper with pad spacers for a 1.1 rotor. This will work out fine but the wider caliper will now be closer to the spokes as it thinks it's on a wider rotor.

In short, yes it could be done with some fore thought.

As for the question of the rear on a 2G yes the parking brake is in place. Stock.

Now onto the rears some more....I got a quote on the rear 3000 calipers today. About $150 each as I don't have cores. So, I'm thinking to do it will be without calipers rather than me supply them. As a whole this package 'should' be a better part than the current DLS of the kit I now produce. Should have found it earlier! (for DLS owners now you can have free brackets to do the swap if I produce this that's how confident I feel on it- you pay for the new rotors and buy your own calipers)

The big question is this: will folks pay about $1000 for this package? Not just me, but the calipers on your own will get you here.

Lastly, if someone can host pics, email me and I'll pass along the latestt 1G 2WD rear kit I did custom: 12.2 DV .81 with 4 pot DL calipers. Cost as shown, about $1000. Damn nice though.

 

[TSiAWD666]

Actually, I did think about the caliper, and hence my question. I should've stated "Will your rotor accomodate a 1.25" rotor as-is?" but left it a bit ambigious to see what else we'd get out of ya I'm sure you better, but I don't believe there would be any clearance issues with the current caliper orientation in the stock configuration with the knuckle (what I think you refer to as a control arm), but certainly something to verify before jumping in.

As for whether or not someone will pay... I'd need to more what the parts from you would cost before making a judgement on that. I think I got lost in what you mean for the rears in the proposed kit. 3000GT 2-pot calipers, 3000GT 11.x rotors... what part would you be supplying? When you say package are you including the front as well? Front with what parts?

You could post the pics here, though they'd need to be sized down a bit. I could host them on the Ithaca Club DSM if you'd prefer. You can send the pics to [email protected].

 

[Todd TCE]

Just making sure you are on the same page on the caliper.

The rear is like this:

First any KIT I'll make is referring to ONE end of a vehicle (bettin' you knew that) and cerainly not a four wheel package for a grand. ..

The calipers are as you stated, but the rotors on hats would be mine with the proper brackets, hoses, bolts etc. etc. Really just a step above what I have now, but not an alum caliper and a bit larger rotor maybe.

I'll try the pic link.

 

[TSiAWD666]

Here are links to pics of the rear kit Todd was referring with 4-pots in the rear on a 1g with 12.2" rotors:

Front View

and

Side/Rear View

 

[TSiAWD666]

One question I forgot to ask is whether or not the pads that fit the various calipers you use in these kits match the dimensions of any car's stock calipers. I ask because I'd like to know what pad options I have if I go with a Wilwood/TCE kit.

 

[VRMAN]

Based on some of the info you gave, being that you drive aggressively on the street but don't go to the track and also your mod list is mild to moderate, it seems like the 13inch setup is overkill on the wallet. I would really suggest:

http://www.dss-racing.com/product.asp?section=Eclipse_Talon&subname=DSM&productid=32-400-110

Comes with everything you need and suits your car and needs perfectly.

 

[Todd TCE]

I'm not certain that someone's 'mod list' is a good gauge of the items they'd wish to purchase, some folks choose be a bit more discreet. Others prefer to start their projects in alternate manners, hp is not everything....

Anyhow, the answer to the pad question is this:

The BSL and some others such as the SLIIA and SLIII use the very common pad plate of the Hawk HB101 for example.

The FSL and BSL6 however use an alternate of this pad. The cotter pin tit is removed and the caliper is fitting with a single bridge bolt. To that end the pads are only now from Wilwood, BUT a quick ten minutes with a hack saw will turn any pad plate of this type into a fit one.

The BSL6N caliper is a bit different yet. The pad plate is the same as the above, but the friction material is thinner. Thus how the caliper is made narrower than its full size mother. This may prove a bit more difficult to currently source pads for as simply removing the 'tit' won't make it fit- the pad is too thick.

The answer to this is to consider the full size caliper if there is room for it that way the selection is greater. In fact huge if you consider the 'quick fix' method. I suspect that more and more companies will offer this pad (its and easy mod for them to sell you a pad based on the standard one so it only make good business to do so) but I'm not so sure on the Narrow versions.

Still, with this info asisde you have a very good selection of pads from the WW line with good street pads- Q, to the all out race pads of the A compound. All are available for the full size 6, a few not yet for the Narow body version. I can supply you exact compound info if you like.