Bad clutch pedal assembly?

[nelliott500]

New clutch, new lightweight flywheel, rebuilt trans, new fork, new OEM TOB. Currently, the clutch grabs just a bit off the floor. I got under the dash to start adjusting and figured I would check to see if my pedal assembly is bad (yay 1G).

I'm worried the assembly might be bad. Here's a quick video of me pushing the pedal in, letting it out, then I can still pull it back up a bit:

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[ame=[MEDIA=youtube]VzFSexsND2E[/MEDIA] Pedal - YouTube[/ame]

Typical signs of a bad assembly, yeah?

Also, I snapped a picture of where the master rod is currently adjusted to (yes, I know the jam nut is loose). Unless I'm mistaken, the rod shouldn't be adjusted out (in?) so far that there's only a few threads left.

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I want to drive this car so bad. Adjusting the clutch is the last thing I need to do.

 

[Paul@RTM]

You're making it tougher than it needs to be. To determine if there's "play" in the pedal assembly, get on your hands and knees outside the car. Stick your head under the dash and look at that adjustment rod. Use your hand to gently push on the clutch pedal. Keep your eyes locked on the adjustment rod while you're pressing the pedal. Whatever amount you can press the pedal before the rod starts to move represents the play you've got in the assembly. You're going to have to go by feel, since at no time while pressing the pedal should your eyes leave that rod. Press slowly and as gently as possible and if you feel your hand moving a good amount, sorry to say, it's not good news.

 

[nelliott500]

I've got maybe 1/8" of play before the rod starts to move. That doesn't sound like much to me.

I'm starting to lean towards a bad master cylinder. I followed Jack's Transmission's clutch adjustment video. He says to turn out the master rod until you can't push clutch fork/slave pushrod in by hand. I turned the rod out almost all the way and I could still push the fork in without any issues. That makes me think something is wrong with the master. Maybe an internal leak that's allowing air past? The underside of it has just a hint of greasiness but not what I would consider to be wet.

 

[dkalfop]

Hey guys, I know this is an old thread but I'm having an issue with my clutch adjustment and shifting.

My car sat for ten years and 5 years ago I started to do some upgrades and got a fluidyne rad. I didn't know where to put the overflow bottle so I let it float, but eventually it fell into the trans linkage and wouldn't let me engage 2, 4, and reverse. Well magnus figured it out but the clutch now works better but having a issue with the pedal engaging at the bottom and think spring time I need to check both pedal assembly and adjustment.

I am willing to rebuild trans and replace clutch but if it still has problem engaging it will drive me crazy! This is season 3 repairing this car and now the car is a dream except for the clutch and shifting crap.

Can you update this thread and let us know what has happened?

 

[nelliott500]

My update is that I still have clutch drag and I haven't figured out why. Pulled the trans out a second time to remove the pressure plate and retorque so I knew for sure it was torqued properly. I even went up to 18 lbs because I felt comfortable with it. Put the trans back in and still clutch drag at 6k RPM. Brand new OEM slave, replaced master cylinder with used spare, rebuilt clutch pedal assembly. Still clutch drag.

Really, I'm at a loss. Like I said in my previous post, when adjusting the clutch, I still can't get to the point that Jack describes in his video where the slave can't be pushed in by hand anymore. I've adjusted the rod on the master almost completely out towards the motor and I can still push in the slave by hand.

There are only two things left that I can think of:

- I never had the step height on my brand new ACT Streetlite checked. According to ACT, it's cut to .612" from the factory and Exedy recommends a .610" step height but no one can seem to give me an answer on whether or not that would be an issue. If it's not an issue, I still don't know 100% that the step height is even correct but I have no reason to believe it isn't.
- The M8 bolt that goes through the engine block and threads in to the trans isn't torqued. A buddy of mine snapped the bolt when we were putting the trans back in the first time. I got the old piece out but the threads were messed up. I helicoiled the hole but, for some reason, the new bolt won't torque down. The bolt head is flush with the engine block like it should be and there's a lock washer on it with blue Loctite so I'm not worried about it backing out, but it's not torqued and that could be part of the problem.

So, there's my update. I'm still having issue even after going through the painful process of rebuilding the pedal assembly.

 

[teeerbo]

Hey guys I've been away from DSMs for about 10 years now because of this problem.

When I replaced my OEM clutch with an Act 2600 it all started. I went through everything trying to fix it, new slave and master cylinders, tried to shim the slave rod eventually replaced with extended slave rod, billet fork, adjusted the master rod all the way out, new pedal assembly then a rebuild kit ending with welding the assembly, had to replace the transmission, I even went as far as to send the pressure plate back to ACT to have it inspected and of course it came back with them saying it was fine. So the car has sat ever since waiting until I got motivated to search for more solutions and I came across this thread last night http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-drivetrain/462232-master-cylinder-rod-adjustment-fix.html.

I picked up the 2g master cylinder this evening and replaced the rod the extra 1/2-3/4" definitely tightens up the pedal. I've got a lot to do before it's running again but I really hope this is the last piece of the puzzle. And I hope it gives a little insight and solves some of your problems. I know I wish I had this information 10 years ago.

Good luck keep us updated.

 

[nelliott500]

Well, yes, typically the underlying reason for clutch drag is not enough clutch throw. A cheap bandaid that usually "fixes" the issue would be a longer slave cylinder rod but that can cause issues on its own such as clutch pre-load or potentially even pushing the pressure plate fingers in and contacting the flywheel.

I've considered getting a longer slave rod at least just to see if that gets rid of the issue but I'm too worried about causing a different problem with my brand new clutch, flywheel, and rebuilt trans. No thanks.

If I have to drop this trans again, I'm just sucking it up, getting the flywheel resurfaced, and putting in a brand new Southbend clutch. I'm sick of pulling this thing out.

EDIT: It is tempting to try the longer master rod though... I wonder if a longer master rod changes the throw in a way that isn't potentially detrimental like a longer slave rod.

 

[TSI_AWD_FTW]

When you push the clutch in, and let off, how much can you pull the clutch pedal back up? it kinda sounds like the pedal assembly is the issue to me.

Nevermind, I watched the video. I would say your assembly is going out. It isn't to hard to take out. I just had mine welded together and i haven't had anymore issues.

 

[nelliott500]

When you push the clutch in, and let off, how much can you pull the clutch pedal back up? it kinda sounds like the pedal assembly is the issue to me.

Nevermind, I watched the video. I would say your assembly is going out. It isn't to hard to take out. I just had mine welded together and i haven't had anymore issues.

How accurate is that testing method? When I push in my clutch pedal and then release it, I can pull it up all the way to the pedal stop where the cruise control switch would be. That seems like it would happen regardless of any actual "wear".

I did rebuild the pedal assembly. The only parts I didn't replace were the two bushings around the brake pedal part because I couldn't figure out how to get it apart. However, from what I've read, the z-bar is almost always the part that wears. I replaced mine using the rebuild kit although the old one didn't seem very worn.

 

[TSI_AWD_FTW]

I meant that youd have to pull it up manually, it should come all the way back up on its own, the space that you have to manually pull the pedal up, would be about the same amount of space youd have to push the pedal in order for it to start pushing the rod
if the z bar is worn or not snug in there that would cause the pedal to move freely with out moving the rest of the assembly until it catches. if the zbar isnt worn, there would be no play in the pedal. who did you order your rebuild kit from? and when you did rebuild was there any play or space inbetween the zbar, and where that is inserted into that other plate. the plate is what was rounded off in mine.

 

[nelliott500]

I understood what you meant. After the pedal comes up on its own, I can still pull it all the way up to the pedal stop where the cruise switch would be.

The rebuild kit was from Extreme PSI.

As much as I remember, the z-bar went in nice and snug and I tightened the nut. The old z-bar didn't look worn. I guess I'm going to have to pull the assembly out again so I can take a look at it.

 

[TSI_AWD_FTW]

It couldnt hurt, just to be sure.

 

[okcummins]

What is the location of the release fork in relation to the window? If you have not replaced your pivot ball or release fork you might have to shim the pivot ball. The fork should be centered or slightly to the engine side of the window.

 

[nelliott500]

The fork and pivot ball are brand new. The fork sits in the middle of the window.

 

[okcummins]

Sorry I missed that you replaced the fork in you op. I had tons of problems with my act 2600. I replaced everything with OEM parts. Slave, master, fork, pivot ball, throw out bearing. Rebuilt pedal housing, steel braided line. I even removed the floor mat to try to get a little extra travel.

I ended up machining a custom length clevis for the adjustment rod on the master cylinder. It worked great. If I had know about the 2g rod I would have done that. I would definitely give it a try.

 

[nelliott500]

Alright, I pulled out my pedal assembly again. That was fun. Anyway, I noticed the nut on the end of the shift lever wasn't real tight. I took the z-bar off again to look at it and everything looks fine. Neither the socket on the z-bar or the end of the shift lever are worn (although they really weren't worn when I rebuilt it either...) so I put it back together and tightened the nut.

After reinstalling the assembly, I'm still getting some slop but I don't know where it's coming from. I did notice that the "slop" is a lot stiffer now. Previously, you could just pick the pedal up the rest of the way with very little force. Now it takes a bit of effort but there's still slop.

If the nut was a little loose, could that have caused the lever/z-bar to wear? They look fine. The only thing I forgot to check was the bushing around the clevis pin for the master but the bushing was still in good shape when I transferred it over to the new z-bar when I rebuilt the assembly.

At this point, should I just have somebody weld the damn thing?

 

[craig4g63]

Alright, I pulled out my pedal assembly again. That was fun. Anyway, I noticed the nut on the end of the shift lever wasn't real tight. I took the z-bar off again to look at it and everything looks fine. Neither the socket on the z-bar or the end of the shift lever are worn (although they really weren't worn when I rebuilt it either...) so I put it back together and tightened the nut.

After reinstalling the assembly, I'm still getting some slop but I don't know where it's coming from. I did notice that the "slop" is a lot stiffer now. Previously, you could just pick the pedal up the rest of the way with very little force. Now it takes a bit of effort but there's still slop.

If the nut was a little loose, could that have caused the lever/z-bar to wear? They look fine. The only thing I forgot to check was the bushing around the clevis pin for the master but the bushing was still in good shape when I transferred it over to the new z-bar when I rebuilt the assembly.

At this point, should I just have somebody weld the damn thing?

Yep, I pulled my clutch pedal to the top of its travel, clamped it and welded the nut. Worked great.

 

[nelliott500]

Yep, I pulled my clutch pedal to the top of its travel, clamped it and welded the nut. Worked great.

But did you have similar problems before you welded it or did you just weld it from the start?

 

[nelliott500]

I guess I'm going to get it welded. I'm just going to take it to my mechanic and have him do it since I don't own a welder or know anyone local that does.

Is there anything in particular that I need to tell him for when he welds it? I know the plastic bushing is an issue so I'm going to call JNZ and see if they'll send me just one bronze bushing. I don't see a need to have them all bronze -- just the one at the end of the lever.

 

[nelliott500]

I'm at a loss here. I can't figure out if I have play in the pedal or not.

If I don't have the master attached, the pedal will travel all the way to the floor and back up to the pedal stop without any issues.

Once I attach the master, depending on where I have the master adjusted to, I have "play". By that I mean that if I push the pedal to the floor and let it raise back up, it stops a certain distance from the pedal stop. This distance is based on the master's adjustment. If I adjust the master's pushrod further inside the car's cabin, the pedal stops further away from the pedal stop. Wherever it stops, I can pull the pedal up to the pedal stop by hand but it feels "stiff".

Now let's say I have the master adjusted to a normal spot (i.e. with 3-4 threads showing on the inside of the clevis). If I push the pedal down and let it come back, it stops ~1/4" from the pedal stop. If I start to push the pedal down again, the master pushrod moves in just like it should. Now, if I pull the pedal back up to the pedal stop and then start to push it back down again, the master pushrod still moves in just like it should. I don't get this at all.

When the pedal stops below the top of the stopping point and I pull it back up, I don't see anything move during the rest of the travel.

I can grab a video or two if it would help explain it better but this is honestly boggling my mind. Or I'll probably just end up pulling the pedal assembly out again tomorrow anyway. I ordered a new bushing for the z-bar where the clevis pin goes through because that's the one thing I didn't replace yet. I have to pick it up from the dealer tomorrow morning.

 

[DogWhistle]

Your clutch pedal 'top stop' should have the pedal in line with the brake pedal.

If the clutch pedal is coming up higher than the brake pedal, you need to adjust your 'top stop' limit screw.

 

[nelliott500]

Mystery solved. This is what I found when I pulled the pedal assembly out for the third time:

[ame=[MEDIA=youtube]c9F4kL95tFw[/MEDIA] play - YouTube[/ame]

What the hell? I just rebuilt this thing 2000 miles ago. I used JNZ's rebuild kit. I don't know if the kit was bad or something went wrong with my install. When I pulled the assembly out last week, I did notice that the nut on the end of the lever was a little loose. I guess that could cause an issue.

Here's pictures of the end of the lever and the z-bar:

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You can actually see where the two worn parts would fit together.

Obviously, I'm definitely getting it welded now. The bronze bushing is already in the mail. It will be here tomorrow afternoon so I'll likely end up taking it to my mechanic on Friday to talk to them about it.

My biggest concern is that I need to get the lever welded so that it will sit in the position it would be without the wear. However, what direction is that? In the video, I can rotate the z-bar a few degrees but does it need to be welded pre-loaded counter-clockwise or clockwise? I can't wrap my head around it. If I'm thinking correctly, since my issue is that I don't have enough throw, I would want to pre-load it counter-clockwise to get the clevis to sit as far forward as possible.

Is that right?

 

[Paul@RTM]

Not that this helps you at all, but . . .
In my opinion, Mitsu really lamed out on that design. If memory serves, neither the lever or the shaft it's supposed to mate with are actually precision machined. The lever hole is punched out and the shaft is roll formed or some such. And these parts are then asked to match exactly? Give me a friggin' break Mitsu. It's nothing more than pure luck those pedals assemblies didn't have to be replaced under warranty for thousands of cars. Notice how they changed the design for the 2g's though. No way that was just a coincidence.
Anyway, sorry for the mostly irrelevant post. Rant off.

 

[nelliott500]

Not that this helps you at all, but . . .
In my opinion, Mitsu really lamed out on that design. If memory serves, neither the lever or the shaft it's supposed to mate with are actually precision machined. The lever hole is punched out and the shaft is roll formed or some such. And these parts are then asked to match exactly? Give me a friggin' break Mitsu. It's nothing more than pure luck those pedals assemblies didn't have to be replaced under warranty for thousands of cars. Notice how they changed the design for the 2g's though. No way that was just a coincidence.
Anyway, sorry for the mostly irrelevant post. Rant off.

I didn't realize they were that imprecise. It wouldn't surprise me then if this was bad straight out of the box but I didn't know it. I mean, it didn't fix my clutch drag so maybe it was bad. If I really crank down on the 14mm end nut for the lever, I can get it to hold pretty well but I just know it will eventually slip again.

I guess it doesn't matter. It needs to be welded but I need a little insight on how to have it properly done.

 

[Paul@RTM]

It needs to be welded but I need a little insight on how to have it properly done.

It's not really that critical in what position it's welded, but I suppose the best situation is to weld it so that you have the most "throw" in the pedal. The idea is that you can always adjust the master rod shorter if necessary but you can't really make it longer. To get the most throw, visualize the assembly in the car and simulate pulling the pedal "up" as far as it will go. Weld in that position.