ARP Head Stud Torque Specs??

[GVR4592]

I would not use the cometic. Use the stock head gasket with the studs and will be more than you need. You will not benefet using the steel head gasket unless your boosting over 30 psi and cometics are even prone to leaking then. Guys run 28 psi on stock head gaskets all the time with out problems. Steel HGs are way over rated and cause more problems than good.

That is completely untrue. Almost every issue with any MLS headgasket failure is improper installation or bad tuning. I agree that it's unneeded for most cars, but it will outperform the stock gasket when it is installed correctly and it will not leak. Plenty of people run 40+ psi on Cometic gaskets without any issues.

I bet 90% of the people on this site that have a MLS gasket don't know what the surface finish in RA is on their head or block. That is where the problem lies. Another 9% think anything under 10 counts of knock is ok and they know nothing about how the stock knock detection system works. The last 1% have no problems with their gaskets, because they know what RA is and they know that any detonation is bad news for a headgasket, especially at higher boost levels. Detonation causes a huge pressure spike in the cylinder, when you add 30+ psi to that it compounds the spike tremendously and destroys the gasket. No gasket will stand up to extended periods of detonation, and most people don't monitor it closely enough to know when they have detonation.

I've never blown a head gasket, I've never had one leak, or push coolant. I've boosted over what my 30 psi gauge can read, I know the RA on my head and block is much lower than it needs to be. I know that any detonation will kill a head gasket, especially at higher boost levels. I know that in the instructions it says not to use copper spray, but almost half of the people that use MLS gaskets spray them anyway. I've never seen a gasket just fail due to manufacturing or design defects, it's always been user error.

I've boosted the stock gasket and bolts to 28 psi, and the Cometic with stock bolts to 30+psi(guessing around 35), all on pump gas and I've never had a problem. So is it a fluke? Or is because I don't cut corners, I don't have detonation, and I read the instructions?

 

[GVR4592]

Ok I searched and was unable to find a clear answer to my question so now i'm asking yall.

96 Gst stock head new valves fresh from machine shop, 7bolt head and block original.

Cometic HG and arps. block clean NOt decked still in car, what torque for the ARPS?
and should I retorque them after some time driving and how long a couple runs? a couple days ? a week ?

Any advice would be a blessing MY first Cometic and I want it to work right .

The ARP's come with instructions on how to torque them and what torque specs to use. If you don't have the instructions, many people have posted scans of the instructions and posted them on here.

 

[Ho0ked]

WTG NOT answering my question !

Thanks for the debate but it's already on the car.
Again does anyone know the torque specs for a cometic and arps on a 7 bolt ?
The instructions, if anyone ever read them, says check your application for specs
my hayes manual says like 58 so im going to do 75 lbs for now till some one can give me some real info.

Thanks

 

[RamenPride]

This thread might be helpful

 

[daren_p]

Well they say 70 ft/lbs with the moly lube that comes with the studs. After some reading I descided that 75 ft/lbs is what I would torque them too.

 

[Ho0ked]

Well they say 70 ft/lbs with the moly lube that comes with the studs. After some reading I descided that 75 ft/lbs is what I would torque them too.

Thankyou very much Daren
And thankyou for the link Ramen.

Thats the kinda advice I was hoping for, and yes I went the moly route.

Reason i'm concerned is ive read somewhere about 90lbs and then heat cycle to 100-105 lbs.

Do you run the cometic hg also ? or did you do this on your car ?

Think i'm going to run them to about 80-85 with the moly lube on the nuts only and see if I can get anymore info this week.

Thanks again for some usefull info

 

[daren_p]

Thankyou very much Daren
And thankyou for the link Ramen.

Thats the kinda advice I was hoping for, and yes I went the moly route.

Reason i'm concerned is ive read somewhere about 90lbs and then heat cycle to 100-105 lbs.

Do you run the cometic hg also ? or did you do this on your car ?

Think i'm going to run them to about 80-85 with the moly lube on the nuts only and see if I can get anymore info this week.

Thanks again for some usefull info

No Cometic, thats with the stock head gasket & I did replace the studs with the head on the car, one at a time obviously. Just make sure you don't torque the studs down into the block, they say finger tight only. I used an allen key to install the studs, then once you've screwed them in till their tight, back them off ~1/8" of a turn. Not sure if you need to but I used the Moly lube on both ends, you will have more then enough to do this.

 

[Turbocharged]

My ARP instructions called for 90 ft-lb. You want to use a 3 step pattern (30 -> 60 -> 90 ft-lb). You want to torque in this pattern:

7 3 1 6 10
9 5 2 4 8

The studs should be finger tight in the block.

You do not need to retorque. If you don't believe me, call ARP and ask for yourself.

Your MLS will be fine. Mine has held up to plenty of abuse, although I rarely see any knock.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Wondering what to torque all the arp's too. Head, rod, and mains "without" the molylube.

I saw these (with molylube)
Head studs 75 ft/lbs. w/ ARP moly lube

Main studs 60 ft/lbs. w/ ARP moly lube

Rod bolts 43 fl/lbs. w/ ARP moly lube OR Bolt stretch .0055-.0059"

I need to pull the head and check all the bearings cause my motor was making a knocking noise and don't have the lube for when I throw it back together. I wanna make sure there's no problems before I throw the motor back in.

2nd question, is a Cometic headgasket reusable? Thanks!

Scott

 

[pneumo]

Cometic's are not reuseable.
ARP recomends moly lube, so go to the auto parts store and buy some moly lube or assembly lube with moly. You're already having trouble with your motor, why take a chance and half-ass it?

 

[v8s_are_slow]

I just thought the torque specs would change because of the friction difference. Didn't know it was a big deal. But also didn't know I could get some moly lube from a store either. I'll have to check into that. Guessing the main and rod bolts use it as well right?

 

[project_tsi]

I don't have info on the Mains and rods but the Head studs need to be 120 ft. lbs w/ 30wt. Motor Oil. And don't use any other Moly Lube besides ARP Moly lube or failure could result.

 

[mcpcola]

retacted 120 seems very high is the head able to handle that load?

 

[Megags]

http://www.posracing.net/ARPstuds.html

Here ya go

 

[v8s_are_slow]

I was thinkin about it this morning and I know that most machine shops get some ARP's to install on people's motor's. And they usually have unused packets layin around. So I stopped by one today and sure enough I was right and picked up a packet for free so I have some lube Before that, I had stopped by a performance shop and they wanted to charge me $23 for a container of it. No thanks! I don't use it that often.

Anyway, ya'll could maybe try that as well if you need some pretty quick and don't have any layin around.

 

[project_tsi]

retacted 120 seems very high is the head able to handle that load?

Don't believe me? This is straight from ARP.

 

[pneumo]

I think I know why there's some confusion here. Next question, how old is your copy of the ARP headstud installation instructions? Which one is the newer version? I got mine 3/14/04.

 

[desolateboosted]

I'm just giving more information on this thread. I used motor oil before and torqued the headstuds to 110-120lbs. I forgot the exact amount but a few days later of heavy boosting some of the studs started loosening and my HG started leaking. Luckily I caught it and redid the entire thing. I went to buy an 8oz molylube container $10! Torqued them down to 100lbs with molylube. After that I havn't had any headstud problems.

 

[Daveed]

This thread was quite helpful. Especially the part about going back through the same sequence twice or so at the same torque setting. Thanks.


Anyone notice the contradiction between #5 where it states that "ANY moly lube is better than motor oil" then the note at the bottom says "don't use any moly lube except ARP's" ?
So which is it?
The instructions I just got in my box of arp head studs still had the same contradiction. I used the ARP moly that came in the box but sometimes people don't have the moly and it'd be nice if it was obvious if any moly lube was ok and better than just motor oil. I personally have a can of RPM moly lube for engine assembly and likely would have used that if the arps didn't come with their own brand of moly.


Also, I'll add a tip for people looking for instructions on installation (this should be in ARPs instructions but isn't)
Put the washers in the head BEFORE putting the head on the motor. It will be a real pain to get the washers past the valve springs in several spots if you have to slide them down the studs. The nuts squeeze past and push the valve springs out of the way slightly on their own as you run them down by hand with a socket and extension.

 

[MidShipCivic]

As far as re-torqueing goes, I have found some interesting things. Generally I do not need to re torque the studs. I used the specifications as stated by ARP, and the torque sequence listed in the manual. I usually use a three step method of 25-30, 50-55, and 80 ft/lbs.

Depending on which head gasket you are using, a certain amount of gasket compression will take place. I have found this to be most prevalent in the Cometic gasket. Please bear with me here, as this may be difficult to explain in words. If you have your studs and Cometic head gasket installed; have applied the provided ARP lube, preform the first torque sequence at say 25 ft/lbs. After you have completed the first sequence, go back to the through the sequence again at the same 25 ft/lbs setting. You may find that the center two stud nuts will have loosened and will no longer be at 25 ft/lbs setting, the next four stud/nut combonations out from the center(two toward the transmission end and two toward the timing belt) may have loosened as well but to a lesser extent than the center two. You should go through the torque sequence at the 25 ft.lbs setting as many times as necessary until there is no longer any torque reduction, before moving on to higher torque levels.

There are many reasons for this that may include but are not limited to things like head gasket compression, stud seating in block, frictional changes when torque is applied, and elongation of fasteners during the application of a clamping load.

So it's not really a 3 step method? I'm confused first do 25 then loosen and do 25-30 again ? Do that with 50-55 then 80 ft as well?

 

[silver bullit]

ARP Headbolts
Start at 25- then 55 lbs tightening the head to bolt down sequence.
If you are using moly lube its 85 if you are using oil 120.
After first warm up or 10 minutes of it running shut it off and retorque head bolts to 85 with moly or 125 with oil.

You finger tight the studs all the way into the block then unscrew a full turn, then torque down the head in bolt order

Think i this is the sequence, but i would double check as this is from my memory:
10..6..1..3..7
8...4...2..5..9

Tighten in order 25lbs then 50-60 then if you are using moly lube its 85 if you are using oil 120

This is for both 6 and 7 bolts

 

[brisvr4]

So it's not really a 3 step method? I'm confused first do 25 then loosen and do 25-30 again ? Do that with 50-55 then 80 ft as well?

What Big Woo was saying is that after you have torqued them all down to 25 ft pounds you may notice that several of the studs have actually loosened due to the headgasket compressing.
That is why you should repeat the procedure at each step.
Better safe than sorry!

 

[silver bullit]

What Big Woo was saying is that after you have torqued them all down to 25 ft pounds you may notice that several of the studs have actually loosened due to the headgasket compressing.
That is why you should repeat the procedure at each step.
Better safe than sorry!

No you have to torque in sequence and 25-50-85/120 with arps to make sure the head gaskit seals and if you put 85 right off the bat it wont seal correct , not to mention there are other related problems with doing this.

 

[silver bullit]

How did you get a galant vr4 to Australia?

 

[brisvr4]

How did you get a galant vr4 to Australia?

Back from the dead, I only just noticed this post!
I am guessing it arrived here on a ship the same as the US ones did.
We only got 314 over here though.