Anyone use a 3 wire c.o.p??

[74runner]

Hey guy's,
I'm looking to try this out of my own curiosity and not for any performance gain or looks.

I have a 1990 Eagle Talon awd tsi.
I have a C.O.P set up I pulled from a 2008 Mazda Protege and it's a 3 wire coil not 2 wire like everyone here uses.

Now before anyone slams me and says don't bother I'll tell you I've searched this a lot and see a lot of negative comments, I'm only interested in info that will help me and others, your opinions don't matter here.

On a 4 wire set up you have:

One wire is the common power feed from the ignition switch.

One wire is the common ground.

One wire is the "IGF" This wire sends a signal to the ecm telling it that the coil just fired.

One wire is the "IGT" ignition timing. This wire turns on the transistor inside the coil. And is the only wire not common to all four coils.

I'm guessing I could just remove the "IGF" wire because my ecm won't see it's signal any way and I assume I can run the coils like a 2 wire set up?

38 views and no comments?
I guess no one has any thing nice to say

 

[Soccerguy136]

First off, if you have "searched this a lot and see a lot of negative comments," that should tell you something.

Second, you said it was a 3 wire coil, but then listed 4 wire coils?

On the helpful side, no one is commenting because most people only try what is proven and this is something that most likely has not been tried yet. Since you already have it, I would say give it a shot and let us know how it goes.

Good Luck.

 

[GST with PSI]

You said you have a 3 wire coil, but you listed 4 wires. Which is it? Which coil(s) has 4 wires?

 

[Broke4speed]

3/4 wire coils are what are called 'smart coils'. They have the ignitor built in. The stock ignition system uses an external igniter to tell the coils to charge and fire. You can't fire smart coils from a DSM ecu, since it's ingition system is set up to work with an igniter & 'dumb' coils.

If you feed a smart coil a signal from the igniter, it'll burn out straight away.

 

[4g63t]

What would be the point of doing this? to look cool?

 

[LandoAWD]

"Curiosity" was cited.

:/

 

[Soccerguy136]

What would be the point of doing this? to look cool?

Duh, because 4 plugs is more than 2 and everyone knows more is betterer....

Seems he just wants to be different and try something new.

Quick, stone him.

 

[GST with PSI]

3/4 wire coils are what are called 'smart coils'. They have the ignitor built in. The stock ignition system uses an external igniter to tell the coils to charge and fire. You can't fire smart coils from a DSM ecu, since it's ingition system is set up to work with an igniter & 'dumb' coils.

If you feed a smart coil a signal from the igniter, it'll burn out straight away.

Still, this doesn't clearly explain how many wires are on each coil, and what the 4th wire does and where it's located.

Instead of paraphrasing and giving a synopsis or how this system works, someone needs to post an actual wiring diagram from the vehicle the coils were removed from. If there is any hope of making this work (which I highly doubt), that is going to be the only way it can be figured out.

I agree with the others and have to ask, why? COP isn't very highly regarded in the community since the general consensus is it's inferior to the stock system unless used with some sort of CDI box (Arc 2, MSD, etc.). There are many guys using it successfully even without CDI, but more often than not it seems like COP on its own performs worse than stock. Intrepid coils are a dime a dozen, so unless there is some benefit to using the Mazda coil you have, I can't see a single reason to go through with this.

OP, if you want help, post up a wiring diagram so we can see how this really works. Also, if you have the factory manual page that explains the concept or principal of operation, that would also help greatly.

 

[Broke4speed]

Uh...no amount of wiring diagrams will help fix the fact that if you feed 12v to a 5v input, it's gonna fry, . Not really paraphrasing, I'm speaking from experience .

 

[GST with PSI]

Uh...no amount of wiring diagrams will help fix the fact that if you feed 12v to a 5v input, it's gonna fry, . Not really paraphrasing, I'm speaking from experience .

Uh...no amount of you rambling on about how the system works will give people the amount of information a simple wiring diagram will.

A factory manual leaves nothing to question, which is why I suggested someone like you who has experience with Mazdas post one up. Nobody could take your little synopsis and draw any logical conclusion that would actually help the OP solve his issue.

I was going to ask, in the time you were building up experience, how did you manage to work on a car that wasn't even produced in 2008? A 2008 Mazda Protege doesn't exist.

Maybe you mean the Mazda 3? If so, please, give us all some insight as to how the ignition system actually works? Explain how the 5v input and "smart coil" works, and what wires on each coil do what?

Better yet, just draw me a quick electrical diagram of how the system works. Since you have so much experience with it, that should be pretty easy.

Or how about instead of any of that, post up the FSM so we all don't have to take your word for it.

 

[Broke4speed]

? I'm not trying to start a fight, and I'm certainly no engineer, but a coil with more than 2 wires is going to be a smart coil with a built in igniter.

I'm not interested in writing an essay on why those coils won't work, because it's not necessary. Smart coils need a logic-level signal from the ecu to tell their built in igniters to start the charging. Dumb coils need an external igniter to charge and fire them. That's it.

I was just trying to save the guy an hour or two of work, but evidently I've offended someone?

 

[GST with PSI]

I was just trying to save the guy an hour or two of work

And how did you do that? By seemingly telling him how "smart coils" work?

 

[boost97gst]

? I'm not trying to start a fight, and I'm certainly no engineer, but a coil with more than 2 wires is going to be a smart coil with a built in igniter.

I'm not interested in writing an essay on why those coils won't work, because it's not necessary. Smart coils need a logic-level signal from the ecu to tell their built in igniters to start the charging. Dumb coils need an external igniter to charge and fire them. That's it.

I was just trying to save the guy an hour or two of work, but evidently I've offended someone?

Sounds pretty damn simple to me. I dont get what the fuss is about. I will say with this "smart COP" I would personally use a heavily shielded wire so I didnt get interference. Its a moot point though, unless someone were to really want to step down the 12v to a 5v current limited signal. Otherwise no one is using this on a dsm. Too much work, no benefit.


Edit: googled and came up with this. Maybe it will help make it more clear. Its a basic idea of how they all work http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1025&context=auto_pres

This too: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=VsWnUpy8L8XZrgGc2IDoBQ&ved=0CDIQ9QEwAQ

 

[Broke4speed]

And how did you do that? By seemingly telling him how "smart coils" work?

By telling him they won't work? Is that not good enough? If he wants to know, google has all the answers, and I've given more than enough info.

Geez man...you're just itching to prove I'm some sort of monster, and I have no idea why.

 

[iceman510]

I attempted this a few years ago by keeping the stock power transistor (what fires our coils based on ECU trigger) in the circuit and trying to use it to fire the transistor in the 3-wire Endeavor coils I was using. Could not get it to work, but I am not very smart with electrons, at least in car circuitry.

I think it could be done, but would require some kind of custom triggering circuit to interface between the ECU triggers (which fire two plugs at once in a VR4/1g which is what I was working on) and the coils with built-in transistors.

 

[74runner]

First off, if you have "searched this a lot and see a lot of negative comments," that should tell you something.

Second, you said it was a 3 wire coil, but then listed 4 wire coils?

On the helpful side, no one is commenting because most people only try what is proven and this is something that most likely has not been tried yet. Since you already have it, I would say give it a shot and let us know how it goes.

Good Luck.

Sorry I mean Negative as in uneducated/ignorant people trashing other people for trying some thing new/different. I believe strongly that if everyone did the same thing no one would ever get any where. I'm on a great Muscle car Forum and people actually help others with out all the hate and B/S. I just wanted the same experience here

I have a 3 wire set up as stated and listed the 4 wire because I knew the wires functions and didn't know the functions of the 3 wire set up.

What would be the point of doing this? to look cool?

I wanted to do this because I got the coils for $7.00 for all four, figured it was worth a shot.

"Curiosity" was cited.

:/

Yes, Thank's

Duh, because 4 plugs is more than 2 and everyone knows more is betterer....

Seems he just wants to be different and try something knew.

Quick, stone him.

HAHA yeah no kidding ....I got the coils dirt cheep so why not right! Might learn some thing in the process too

 

[92AWDHX40]

tteresting thread after reading the responses, lots of us do things differently and some things others say actually help, sometimes aren't clear cut even when we respond to certain questions. I think a lot of us really try to help the best they can, I think some are either its exactly right or wrong,, so did you find the answer you needed?

Have you ever had a problem with the setup before?

 

[74runner]

Uh...no amount of you rambling on about how the system works will give people the amount of information a simple wiring diagram will.

A factory manual leaves nothing to question, which is why I suggested someone like you who has experience with Mazdas post one up. Nobody could take your little synopsis and draw any logical conclusion that would actually help the OP solve his issue.

I was going to ask, in the time you were building up experience, how did you manage to work on a car that wasn't even produced in 2008? A 2008 Mazda Protege doesn't exist.

Maybe you mean the Mazda 3? If so, please, give us all some insight as to how the ignition system actually works? Explain how the 5v input and "smart coil" works, and what wires on each coil do what?

Better yet, just draw me a quick electrical diagram of how the system works. Since you have so much experience with it, that should be pretty easy.

Or how about instead of any of that, post up the FSM so we all don't have to take your word for it.

My mistake, the car had a Protege tag on it, I never paid much attention to it other then yanking the coils and taking a few pics.

2008 MAZDA MAZDA3I
VIN:JM1BK32F681106139

Uh...no amount of wiring diagrams will help fix the fact that if you feed 12v to a 5v input, it's gonna fry, . Not really paraphrasing, I'm speaking from experience .

A typical 12->5v phone charger circuit will fix the 12v to 5v issue depending on the amps

tteresting thread after reading the responses, lots of us do things differently and some things others say actually help, sometimes aren't clear cut even when we respond to certain questions. I think a lot of us really try to help the best they can, I think some are either its exactly right or wrong,, so did you find the answer you needed?

Have you ever had a problem with the setup before?

Lol I agree I just figured Mopar guys get along and help out and dsm people should too, no need for bashing and trashing, we all have the same goal in the end... I was a DSMer years back, people would come from all over to see me because I helped wrench for free and had lots of parts I'd give away.It seems there's not much of that going on any more. I'm still looking for answers but I do have a shop in town that works on wiring all of the time and they are willing to have a look into it for me.

 

[Broke4speed]

So get to work then!