About Turbo, boost, and horsepower

[cturok7]

Hey everyone!

I have searched a good bit for the answer to my question already. Now I am asking it hear.

My future plan as a DSMer is to upgrade my 91 AWD Talon TSi. I am doing some engine work starting with the Balance Shaft Elimination. Anyway, the other day I was reading and thinking about turbos. I thought about boost and horsepower. I now know my bolt-on options, or at least the options that I will pursue. Now, I have a 2G ported turbo manifold in my 1G. It looks shiny. It's a stock 14b turbo. I know the next step up from here. I know that there is a small 16G and the big 16G. I'm not looking to get too hardcore just yet, so that small 16G sounds good. My question is how much does an average small 16G boost? If I have the same level of boost from a slightly bigger/better turbo then will I get more HP? I have heard that the s16g gives a better top end with just about the same lag. I am also planning on getting metal intercooler piping. Does that increase boost just by itself? I am guessing that it does because of another thread that I read.

 

[tkelly27]

Balance Shaft Elimination is a wonderful thing. I've had one on my car the entire time I've owned it and I just figured that out a few weeks ago.

The amount of boost a turbo puts out will depend on what you set it at. All 16G's will go to the same boost as a 14B without a boost controller. It doesn't say that you have a boost controller on your 14B yet. If you don't, you need to look into that before you upgrade the turbo. The stock 10psi is nice, but 16psi is a whole different beast. The 14B maxes out around 20 and will fall off @ higher RPMs. Max effort 14B's can make 300+hp @ the crank, which is no slouch.

A bigger turbo can be more efficient at higher pressure levels. This means they will put less heat into the system. Less heat means more power. A bigger turbo will also come with a bigger turbine. This let's the engine breathe better at the expense of spool up time. A better flowing exhaust turbine will give you more hp per psi.

Metal IC pipes don't add boost. I can only imagine they are less restrictive, meaning it doesn't take as much pressure for the air to travel through them. If that's the case, for a given pressure at the turbo outlet, you'll see more at the intake manifold. For the money you'll spend on that, you can probably get close to buying a FMIC and piping, which will make a world of difference.

If you do a search you'll find what the 16G will max out at. Don't get one, get a boost controller first. If you have a boost controller, update your profile, get a logger, something to tune with, and tune the 14B until it's maxed out. It's really tempting to upgrade turbos, but for a lot of people it's just not necessary.

 

[JayRolla]

I recommend the a true MHI evo16g. Small 16g has a little faster spool but has less top end.

 

[kenamond]

I agree almost completely with what tkelly27 said. If you have a logger and a MBC, you can push the 14B up a lot past stock levels. Just don't do it without a logger. Eventually, knock or fuel or both will limit you, but the logger will tell you if/when this is happening. Without a logger, you can blindly kill your engine.

Knock gets to be a problem faster if you're pushing a smaller turbo out of its efficiency range. Larger turbos are more efficient at higher boost, so they don't heat the air as badly, and you have less knock as a result.

Another thing to consider is a clutch. I'm not sure about the 1g, but the 2g clutch won't last long past 250whp.

You can get a metal UICP for a lot less than a FMIC, though. I'm not sure how ugly the stock 1g pipe looks, but the 2g one is terrible. I know that on a 2g, you have to upgrade the air filter to get a good UICP to fit or you have to hack the airbox to make room. As tkelly said, the pressure loss across all of the pipes and intercoolers between the turbo compressor outlet and the engine are like losing boost in a sense. If the turbo is pumping out 18psi, but you're losing 3psi along the way to the motor, then you see 15psi in the intake runners. Decrease the pressure losses to 1psi, then you get 16psi in the intake runners while still boosting 18psi at the compressor outlet.

 

[cturok7]

That was the first thing on my list of mods for the car before the balance shaft bearing started to move. My BIGGEST obstacle is getting my engine out of the car so I can perform the surgery (BSE). But, yes, MBC is my very next mod. Then exhaust system from Karcare here in Greenville. They do all the custom piping and my friends dad got both their exhaust systems for like $270 a piece with the stainless steel system and muffler. He owns 2 nonturbo Supras. They sound great. Of course, I'm not positive how far back they have it and I know they have the 2.5".

 

[cturok7]

Balance Shaft Elimination is a wonderful thing. I've had one on my car the entire time I've owned it and I just figured that out a few weeks ago.

The amount of boost a turbo puts out will depend on what you set it at. All 16G's will go to the same boost as a 14B without a boost controller. It doesn't say that you have a boost controller on your 14B yet. If you don't, you need to look into that before you upgrade the turbo. The stock 10psi is nice, but 16psi is a whole different beast. The 14B maxes out around 20 and will fall off @ higher RPMs. Max effort 14B's can make 300+hp @ the crank, which is no slouch.

A bigger turbo can be more efficient at higher pressure levels. This means they will put less heat into the system. Less heat means more power. A bigger turbo will also come with a bigger turbine. This let's the engine breathe better at the expense of spool up time. A better flowing exhaust turbine will give you more hp per psi.

Metal IC pipes don't add boost. I can only imagine they are less restrictive, meaning it doesn't take as much pressure for the air to travel through them. If that's the case, for a given pressure at the turbo outlet, you'll see more at the intake manifold. For the money you'll spend on that, you can probably get close to buying a FMIC and piping, which will make a world of difference.

If you do a search you'll find what the 16G will max out at. Don't get one, get a boost controller first. If you have a boost controller, update your profile, get a logger, something to tune with, and tune the 14B until it's maxed out. It's really tempting to upgrade turbos, but for a lot of people it's just not necessary.

So you're saying that different turbos, provided efficient exhaust turbines, could equal more HP per PSi. For example:
14psi on my talon stock = around 200hp. 14psi on 16g could = more hp.

 

[cturok7]

Where is the boost measured?

 

[c4uldr0n]

14psi on a 16G makes more power than 14psi on the 14B... the larger the turbo, the more CFM it puts out, more air = more power!

c4

 

[c4uldr0n]

Where is the boost measured?

Multiple places. The wastegate sees boost/pressure usually closer to itself in the charge piping, and the bov/boost gauge will see boost/pressure/vacuum at the intake manifold. Typically the intake manifold will see less boost/pressure than the wastegate, since it is further away from the turbo and there are losses between the turbo and the intake manifold due to pipe length and intercooler cores.

c4

 

[daren_p]

So you're saying that different turbos, provided efficient exhaust turbines, could equal more HP per PSi. For example:
14psi on my talon stock = around 200hp. 14psi on 16g could = more hp.

Yes you are correct, changing turbine wheels/housings should have a direct effect on HP (or VE). I've never played with the 14b, so not sure where its effiency starts to drop off but I'd imagine it wouldn't have a problem holding 14psi to redline. The 16g still uses the same sized turbine wheel but uses the larger 7 cm turbine housing, so yes you could potentially see abit more power with the 16g at this level (but were probably not talking night & day difference). As you up the boost level more, this is where the 16g with its larger compressor wheel will start to shine over the 14b.

Now if you compared your 14b to say the FP3052 I'm running that has a much larger/better flowing turbine housing & also a much larger & better flowing turbine wheel, 14 psi will make a good amount more power vs the 14b.

 

[90blacktsiawd]

It depends on what your talking about being measured. For a boost gauge you want to tap the line into a source after the throttle body. But for a mbc you want to tap something closer to the turbo.

 

[cturok7]

Do most/some boost gauges come with install directions? Thanks to everyone who is contributing. I need to grow my knowledge of DSMs.

 

[daren_p]

Do most/some boost gauges come with install directions? Thanks to everyone who is contributing. I need to grow my knowledge of DSMs.

www.vfaq.com is your friend You can find instructions to most typical bolt ons there. Also depending on which gauge you get, don't use the crappy hard plastic tubing they come with. Get some proper silicone vacuum hose to hook it up with (& by proper I mean don't get the crappy Reactive stuff that your local auto parts store carries, as it won't hold up to boost)

 

[oldman420]

Yah these guys are giving you some really good advice, personally if i were you go with a fp 255lph, and afpr. You could easily push 14psi on that 14b save you money on the turbo and get a decent front mount with the added fuel upgrades and you could make just as much power as slapping a 16g on, but be more ahead in your upgrade path. Bag that 14b for all it's worth

 

[cturok7]

Balance Shaft Elimination is a wonderful thing. I've had one on my car the entire time I've owned it and I just figured that out a few weeks ago.

The amount of boost a turbo puts out will depend on what you set it at. All 16G's will go to the same boost as a 14B without a boost controller. It doesn't say that you have a boost controller on your 14B yet. If you don't, you need to look into that before you upgrade the turbo. The stock 10psi is nice, but 16psi is a whole different beast. The 14B maxes out around 20 and will fall off @ higher RPMs. Max effort 14B's can make 300+hp @ the crank, which is no slouch.

A bigger turbo can be more efficient at higher pressure levels. This means they will put less heat into the system. Less heat means more power. A bigger turbo will also come with a bigger turbine. This let's the engine breathe better at the expense of spool up time. A better flowing exhaust turbine will give you more hp per psi.

Metal IC pipes don't add boost. I can only imagine they are less restrictive, meaning it doesn't take as much pressure for the air to travel through them. If that's the case, for a given pressure at the turbo outlet, you'll see more at the intake manifold. For the money you'll spend on that, you can probably get close to buying a FMIC and piping, which will make a world of difference.

If you do a search you'll find what the 16G will max out at. Don't get one, get a boost controller first. If you have a boost controller, update your profile, get a logger, something to tune with, and tune the 14B until it's maxed out. It's really tempting to upgrade turbos, but for a lot of people it's just not necessary.

I know that FMIC setup is the way to go. That's the way I've been planning for awhile. I know that I need a Manual BC and Boost Gauge. Will the stock boost gauge read along with aftermarket? Where is the boost gauge setup on a stock engine? I figure that's where I'll get the best reading.

 

[kenamond]

I know that FMIC setup is the way to go. That's the way I've been planning for awhile. I know that I need a Manual BC and Boost Gauge. Will the stock boost gauge read along with aftermarket? Where is the boost gauge setup on a stock engine? I figure that's where I'll get the best reading.

The stock boost gauge isn't really a pressure gauge. The ECU calculates what it thinks the boost is based on the engine load. It doesn't tap into a boost pressure source anywhere.

The aftermarket gauge should T into your fuel pressure solenoid vaccuum line. There is a tech article telling you how to do this. Then you run a vaccuum line from that, through the firewall, and to your gauge. You also need a place to mount the gauge (many mount in an a-pillar gauge pod and wire the gauge backlight to their dimmer switch). All of this is documented in how-to's. I'm not sure where 1g guys usually run the boost gauge line through the firewall. On a 2g, most run it through the steering column boot.

Finally, you can have both boost gauges no problem. The stock one gets voltage from the ECU, so it's a completely separate beast.

 

[dsmsucks]

14psi on a 16G makes more power than 14psi on the 14B... the larger the turbo, the more CFM it puts out, more air = more power!

c4

I doubt @ 14psi a 16g would OUT perform the 14b. At a higher boost setting but not at 14psi

 

[kenamond]

I doubt @ 14psi a 16g would OUT perform the 14b. At a higher boost setting but not at 14psi

It depends on whether it's a small or big 16g and a TD05H or TD06H housing on the big 16g. But the compressor maps at 14psi look pretty close for all of those combinations when compared to the 14b. So I tend to agree with dsmsucks. They will perform similarly at 14psi boost.

 

[dsmsucks]

It depends on whether it's a small or big 16g and a TD05H or TD06H housing on the big 16g. But the compressor maps at 14psi look pretty close for all of those combinations when compared to the 14b. So I tend to agree with dsmsucks. They will perform similarly at 14psi boost.

Wow Im late, I didnt know that a 16g could come with tdo6h housing

 

[1991autoGSX]

can a 91 GSX automatic turbo be upgraded to a 5speed turbo??? i've been looking at the comparison charts and found that the automatic has a smaller turbo and injectors....can i upgrade from automatic turbo and injectors to a 5speed's turbo and injectors???? and see similar results with the same parts: fuel pressure regulator, MBC, and hard piping???

 

[kenamond]

Wow Im late, I didnt know that a 16g could come with tdo6h housing

I don't know if anyone runs it on our cars. Here is the map, though.

 

[2gGSX]

I don't know if anyone runs it on our cars. Here is the map, though.

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No hot linking big guy.

 

[kenamond]

No hot linking big guy.

Sorry, but I don't know what hot linking is.

The link worked for me, but maybe that's because it's cached? Anyway, link is below in plain text.

http://www.stealth316.com/images/td06-16g-raw.gif