9:1 pistons and timing

[turboglenn]

Well, for years i've run on 8:1 slugs and 7.8:1 stockers except back when i still had a seven bolt eons ago.

While dialing in my new motor i'm noticing the 9:1 slugs don't like timing at all on 92 oct pump fuel. ( of course methanol gets rid of it, but i'm trying to go without it for now)

Jst curious tohear from some of you that have 9:1 pistons and what kind of timing curve you're getting on what boost levels.

My car has me down to 12* timing at 4500 RPM (yikes) iv'e never had below 18 there. No other DSM i've tuned has been a 9:1 motor...everyone has went in the 8:1 area that i know of because of wanting to run really high boost before e85 became so popular.


I let the J&S dictate the timing curve and what i got that pulls cleanly is 12 at the onlset of boost at low RPM, then climbing roughly 1* per 500 RPM until redline at 7500 where i have 18* advance. One thing that is nice though , the 9:1's gave me so muhc low end back and increased spool so dramatically that i almost wish i had went .5 higher being that i run e85 all summer

AFR is at 11.4 - 11.0, boost is running at 15 psi (sometimes i go to 20, but in this weather you really can't use the 15psi until past 3rd gear)

i'm not having "trouble" so to speak, because after all it's just a tune and every motor is different, but i would like to know what you guys (especially with stand alones) are getting from 9:1 motors.

Also, incase some one remembers my original plan i I did NOT get to use the 1.6l head, so it's jsut a factory 1g casting with FFWD cams and BC springs and retainers

 

[Rob10_99]

Your used to tuning with the lower compression so you throw timing at it like its nothing. Most engines non dsm's are lucky to see 20deg at anything more than 10psi. What are your flow #'s compared to the other piston combos at the same rpm level?

 

[turboglenn]

Your used to tuning with the lower compression so you throw timing at it like its nothing. Most engines non dsm's are lucky to see 20deg at anything more than 10psi. What are your flow #'s compared to the other piston combos at the same rpm level?

NOt sure on flow.. I run speed density on an aftermarket ECU that doesn't support mass air setups. That's the ONE downfall about Speed density is that i cant' read air flow like the DSMlink guys can. I almsot wish there was a way to hook up the factory MAF meter and just log it's output. I'm sur eit can be done, but i'm no electronics genius or anything. I just knoiw stand alones from doing the fo so long now, and i try to get every customer that gets one to go with speed density for the cleaner look and the fact that it will still run just fine if you pop an IC coupler or get a leak in a BOV or something

EDIT: A few of our Porsche club racers use 9:1 pistons in their cars but they are tuned for road racing where we aren't trying to push every last degree out of them since they regualrly do 20-40 minute heats. but they still top out typically at 20 or so degrees, but hey are also running on race fuels

 

[toofast82]

I'm sure as you know that the stock 2g timing on high load maxes at 16deg and they have 8.5:1. I'm sure they built in some safety into that timing map. Sounds like your doing good with the 18deg at 15psi. Can you still run this much timing without the meth at 20psi? Never ran 9:1 but i think the stock 2g high load would be a decent starting point and go from there. It really depends on how much boost youre going to run. Keep me informed as im planning to do my next motor at 9:1 or 10:1

 

[turboglenn]

I'm sure as you know that the stock 2g timing on high load maxes at 16deg and they have 8.5:1. I'm sure they built in some safety into that timing map. Sounds like your doing good with the 18deg at 15psi. Can you still run this much timing without the meth at 20psi? Never ran 9:1 but i think the stock 2g high load would be a decent starting point and go from there. It really depends on how much boost youre going to run. Keep me informed as im planning to do my next motor at 9:1 or 10:1

YEa, the same timing curve works great still at 20psi without meth. I plan on running the HX35 i'm saving for at at least 27 - 32 psi daily on E85.

The only reason i'm running petrol fuel is because of our sub-zero temps and the starting troubles i was having on E85 once winter hit.

With the meth i can run more timing (tested it just to make sure the knock was not PK )

I have to get back under the car soon though. I have to work on the oil pressure issue i'm having and there's somehting in the suspension that's clunking when the boost hits hard in 2nd that makes the knock sensor go crazy, and i also hear it when i brake hard..so something must be some what loose, just need to pull the wheels and check all the suspension pieces when i cut the oil pressure relief spring

One thing that's hurting me is that the inducer blades on my turbo are completely rounded off from the water it took in when i hydrolocked the car in sept. 08, so i know this things just making hot air and is way out of it's efficiency range even at 15psi.

 

[toofast82]

20psi and 18deg sounds pretty good for 92oct on 9:1 to me. Maybe try and get another deg or two out of it, but i wouldnt expect much more than what your getting. Obviously, youll know how to tune it once you get e85 back in!

 

[jrohner]

Why are you running 92 right now instead of E85 anyways? Do you have cold start issues with E85 like some complain of? My 2g starts perfect even when below zero on E85, and my 1g started fine too in the winter.

I'm thinking I'd like to get some 10:1's in my car. I think mine are 8:1 considering I only have like 140 or 150 psi of compression.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Glen, your tune sounds fine to me with the octane you are currently running.
My friend just built his with 9:1 and we are seeing the same timing down low as you mentioned but for 25psi on the 60-1 and low 11s afr, peak timing I dont think will ever go higher than 15degs, and hell he cant see that till after 6k I believe.

Has your head ever been shaved? There are other little factors that could affect your results, I wouldnt worry about it too much, and as Ive learned its hard to compare timing numbers from one setup to another, even with the same motors, and builds it literally is apples to oranges.
I think if anything ( if your trying to make any power on petrol) then just lower the timing some and crank the boost up... Rule of thumb is you will make more power with a few more lbs of boost and a few degs less timing than vice versa.

Since you have e85 as an option, Id be happy just for it to be running decent with no knock on the regular 92 octane because since you can just later go throw e85 back in and crank the F out of her...

What brand pistons did you get, how much you end up paying?
Whenever I build mines I was considering going as high as 10:1 which would really be nice if you have e85, but the cost goes up quite a bit over the standard 9:1's and I dont know if I want to pay a lot more for the added compression.

 

[turboglenn]

I'm not complaining baout the tune, just wondering what others were getting, and i'm at ease.

Yesterday my com chip in my E6k took a dump, so it will run, i just can't tune. So, today i'm putting in the new E6X ecu that i had overnighted from haltech. (it pays to be a haltech dealer, now if they'd just get my name on their site as the only dealer in omaha, that would be sweet)

I'll have the 6k repaired and use that on our neon project or sell it i imagine. What a great ECU! Too bad a static electricity shaock was all it took to fry the com ship in the unit I think i'm going to run a ground from the com wire (DB-9) so that if i static shock it again there's even more chance it will just dump to ground instead of finding it's way in the ECU

anyway..back on topic.

I have wiseco 9:1's for them from maperformance for a tad under 400 bucks, eagle H beam rods. ACL race bearings. and i put the BC springs and retainers in during the rebuild

AS for why i'm running pump gas... starting issues like crazy on e85 in the cold (i've seen my block temps be as low as -10 to -15 in the mornings..not to mention i might as well take advantage of low pump prices for the better mileage while i can!

The great thing about the new ECu is i can have dual maps that change with the push of a button E85 and pure pump...then i have trim control to adjust for mixtures of the 2 during transistion

 

[miragetbo1997cc]

And I thought I was going crazy.My 9:1 motor doesnt like timing either.And I have VP100 in it.Timing starts at 14 and climbs to 19 on top with no knock.My tune is not refined as this is the second tune .But when I did my first freeway log ,it scared the crap outta me with 17 deg at 4500 and knocking like crazy.Pulling timing all the way down to 10 deg at 6500

 

[turboglenn]

Well, i go the E6x in, now i can get back out and continue tuning. I've got to double check the water injection so see if the ECU is still running it after the swap, then i'll try getting more timing out of this motor.

EDIT: scratch anymore tuning bad weather just hit...freezing rain turning to snow.possible 1-2 inches

I just got the new ecu in and the other maps imported into it...now the car probably won't move for days

I gotta admit this dual mapping iscool as hell! I have my pump map loadedand with one swich being flipped i can fill with E85 and go (or go back to pump )

I also picked up a tip from claudio at haltech and he told me to run a higher level driver than i have been running on the 1kcc injectors, now they open a lot better...the new windows based software is pretty cool and gives you access to some new features as well. (statingthis because i know there's some other e6k users on here)

 

[turboglenn]

Well, it was halfway warm today and i wanted to tune (crap turbo or not) and as things progressed i started getting really frustrated with the timing this 9:1 motor will take (especially in the torque areas) So I went to BP and threw 5 gallons of E85 in, then filled the rest of the way up with 92 oct. pump. I didn't want to go pure E85 becuase it's so camn cold here in the winter MY car would never start (mine is cold blooded for some reason)

So anyway, i pull ouf of the gas station, head for the interstate and all is good with a few quick jabs up to redline. So i go into the maps and add 5* timing under all boost areas and then turn the boost up from 15 to 20psi and just pullled. The tune was off fo the mix because it was my pump gas map and i was just trimming the fuel globally with the knob for it on the haltech. I was ending up running 12- 12.2:1 with 18* timing at 4000RPM and 21 * by 6000RPMand then leveled it off there.. still not a bit of knock.

I am getting frustrated with something connected to the motor that sets the KS off on sharp fast down shifts when the tires break loose ( i tightened the one thing that was doing it) So tomorrow i'm changing to the 3G lifters (topline revised models) and i will report how well i like them.

I'm only posting because how relieed i am that with just the addition of a little corn juice in the pump fuel i was still able to get right back into adding timing and making power on this 9:1 motor.... It's been on pump gas since it was put in and i was beggining to be afraid it wouldn't like timing no matter what...nope it was just the crap 92 gas we get

The only thing i'm having trouble deciding is what to do with my cams...advance/retard/ and which one or what to both.. i mean i know what it does, but deciding is a bi*** :

 

[toofast82]

How does the 9:1 motor feel compared as much as you can with similar boost and timing as your 8:1 even though you ran more timing most likely on the old setup?

 

[turboglenn]

IT feels a lot stronger everywhere. it's more picky about the timing nmbers, but off boost, to on boost and WOT all feel a good bit better than the 8:1 motor did. The one point in compression is noticable to say the least

 

[Black_Bullet]

IT feels a lot stronger everywhere. it's more picky about the timing nmbers, but off boost, to on boost and WOT all feel a good bit better than the 8:1 motor did. The one point in compression is noticable to say the least

Thats great, so I should have no trouble telling a difference when this old stock 1g 6bolt comes out and I get my wiseco 9:1 pistons in.
And good to hear the e85 seems to help dramatically even when its a diluted mix. Sounds like your car should be making good power on the tune it has now, I dont think you need anymore timing nor a leaner afr than that, I would just get the boost up to the 30psi range with more e85 in the tank

How does the 9:1 motor feel on straight 92 octane without the help of e85 and the lowish timing numbers in comparison to the old motor on straight pump gas.
Does the higher compression feel like it makes up in power for the lose of timing, or does it balance out and feel roughly the same, or weaker due to timing being too low?

I mean I know with better fuel the higher comp motor will always feel stronger period,
but tell me this, from your experience, when detonation is the limiting factor, which feels faster higher compression, low timing, X boost and afr
or lower compression, higher timing, X boost and afr for example...

 

[mobythevan]

I should have no trouble telling a difference when this old stock 1g 6bolt comes out and I get my wiseco 9:1 pistons in.

Not to get off track, but what made you decide on 9:1 vs 10:1? I am running E85 full time now and I'm ready to raise compression.

 

[Black_Bullet]

^ Price, reliability and the fact that I had later decided that Iam going to go with a bigger turbo that should easily reach the end goal power wise for the car without needing to push the limits of other aspects of the tune... 9:1 will be enough for me. There is no guarantee either that I will have e85 accessible to me ALL the time...
In your case, go for the 10:1 and have some fun!

 

[turboglenn]

Thats great, so I should have no trouble telling a difference when this old stock 1g 6bolt comes out and I get my wiseco 9:1 pistons in.
And good to hear the e85 seems to help dramatically even when its a diluted mix. Sounds like your car should be making good power on the tune it has now, I dont think you need anymore timing nor a leaner afr than that, I would just get the boost up to the 30psi range with more e85 in the tank

How does the 9:1 motor feel on straight 92 octane without the help of e85 and the lowish timing numbers in comparison to the old motor on straight pump gas.
Does the higher compression feel like it makes up in power for the lose of timing, or does it balance out and feel roughly the same, or weaker due to timing being too low?

I mean I know with better fuel the higher comp motor will always feel stronger period,
but tell me this, from your experience, when detonation is the limiting factor, which feels faster higher compression, low timing, X boost and afr
or lower compression, higher timing, X boost and afr for example...

Even with the lower timing and at only 15 psi the 9:1 motor feels a lot stronger than the 8:1 motor did at 18-19psi and roughly 16-18* of timing on pump gas (about the same timing curve except the 9:1 motor makes me "build up" to max timing)

I got my topline lifters in today and after they got pumped up the car felt a LOT better, a REALLY loose motor mount was the cause of the rest of my phantom knock (which is now gone - thank god)

I chose 9:1 myself because i knew i could get away on pump gas with slightly better MPG on the highway amd better transient response and drivability. I don'thave E85 available to me at "all times" because i travel out of state a lot and can't find it and when i do travel i like to drive on pump gas because i get about 10 more MPG on pump than i do on ethanol on the highway ( and that's even if i tune the E85 lean)

I"m about to make a post with pics of the damage the last motor took in september when it hydrolocked.. i drove it until december, being EASY on it because i knew something was wrong, the J&S don't lie - I"ll put it in cylinderhead-shortblock section right now

 

[JayRolla]

Well good to see you got the new motor together and having fun tuning with it. Now you need to put some e85 in and see what she can do.

When I was on pump I had the same timing issues as you. Sucked and the main reason I switched to e85 is due to the motor not liking timing.

 

[turboglenn]

I've been making upgrades and oe thing i did was re build the TB with O-rings... now the throttle is SLOW to close and feels like it stiks fopr a second ..picked up a bunch of different O-rings today and will get better ones in tomorrow

Also to be isntalled tomorrow you'll have to look for a new post in the :bot on's" area i'm about to make right now

 

[mobythevan]

I've been making upgrades and oe thing i did was re build the TB with O-rings... now the throttle is SLOW to close and feels like it stiks fopr a second ..picked up a bunch of different O-rings today and will get better ones in tomorrow

Not sure if you are putting the o-rings in a NT TB, but when I did mine it only worked if I flipped over the stock seals when adding the o-rings. If I left the stock seals in the same orientation then it drug and stuck like you describe.

 

[turboglenn]

Last night I tried one set of the newer O-rings i got yesterday and re-sealed it and it returns just fine, so i just have to pull here out today and stick these O-rings under the stock metal rings and it SHOULD work just fine ( i hope...seems i hope for a lot with this car )

 

[Black_Bullet]

Even with the lower timing and at only 15 psi the 9:1 motor feels a lot stronger than the 8:1 motor did at 18-19psi and roughly 16-18* of timing on pump gas (about the same timing curve except the 9:1 motor makes me "build up" to max timing)

Pretty heavy statement, but exactly what I wanted to hear!