850's too much for a 50 trim?

[Austin06]

Probably not gonna be too much, but just wondering how its going to be tuning a turbonetics 50 trim with a set of 850's and s-afc?
I know it'd probably be worth the investment for dsmlink, but i wanna wait on that. Just trying to get a head's up on issues i may have with this setup.

Installing with the 50trim..rre850's, 255 with fpr, and a front mount.

Thanks in advance for any input, as I'm still learning.

 

[boostedinaz]

Unless you are running a chip to compensate for those injectors it won't work very well. The limits of the AFC are about 660 maybe, maybe 750's. After that you will be pulling so much fuel out your timming will be all over the place.


If you do get a chip for it www.dsmchips.com then you can have the global fuel setting changed to match the 850's and use the AFC for fine tunning.

 

[iiiwildfireiii]

Unless you are running a chip to compensate for those injectors it won't work very well. The limits of the AFC are about 660 maybe, maybe 750's. After that you will be pulling so much fuel out your timming will be all over the place.


If you do get a chip for it www.dsmchips.com then you can have the global fuel setting changed to match the 850's and use the AFC for fine tunning.

Seconded. 850's aren't too much for a 50-trim...they're too much for the SAFC. My injector duty cycles on my 650's can run up into the 80's on 15-18 psi. If you get DSMlink, get the highest flowing injector you can. Not only will it keep the injectors lasting longer due to the lower IDC's, you will also have tons of room to grow should you decide to move up to a bigger turbo.

 

[eldiabloz13]

Yeh but wont it pump more unnessicary fuel then not if you have like 1000cc's? Everyone says bigger bigger bigger so you have a lower IDC, but what are the drawbacks of this? I know there has to be some type of drawback.

 

[jredgo1234]

This might help a little:

Taken from the Tech section "How the SAFC Works"

One of the main side effects of changing the airflow with a SAFC, is the profound effect it has on timing. The timing map in the ECU is set up as such: the ECU looks at the engine speed and the airflow (actually the airflow per rev, but we wont go there right now), and then finds the point on the timing map. The timing map is just set up like a spreadsheet, with the columns representing either engine speed or airflow, and the rows representing the other. The tendency of the timing map is that lower airflow (less load on the motor) gets more timing advance. This is for a couple reasons, but generally lower load means less heat and less cylinder pressure, which means you can use more timing advance to get the mixture to combust at the correct point. The effect this has is that if you reduce the amount of airflow that the ECU sees, it will move down on the timing map, and you will get more advance.

You need to be very careful with this. Not only do you get more advance at WOT, but you also get more advance at cruise and part throttle. In most cases, the WOT knock that can be caused by too much advance can be tuned out, but the knock caused at part throttle and when the turbo is spooling can’t always be.

 

[Austin06]

Unless you are running a chip to compensate for those injectors it won't work very well. The limits of the AFC are about 660 maybe, maybe 750's. After that you will be pulling so much fuel out your timming will be all over the place.


If you do get a chip for it www.dsmchips.com then you can have the global fuel setting changed to match the 850's and use the AFC for fine tunning.

okay, thanks for the info.
So if I don't go with a chip, what would be an ideal injector to run with this turbo?
Thanks again.

 

[merqury]

I would say 650's max with the SAFC. It becomes almost immpossible to tune with SAFC with bigger injectors. I just got my 50 trim and I'll be tunning it with the dsmlink, so later on I think you should switch over!

 

[Austin06]

I would say 650's max with the SAFC. It becomes almost immpossible to tune with SAFC with bigger injectors. I just got my 50 trim and I'll be tunning it with the dsmlink, so later on I think you should switch over!

I absolutely agree.

 

[Austin06]

Unless you are running a chip to compensate for those injectors it won't work very well. The limits of the AFC are about 660 maybe, maybe 750's. After that you will be pulling so much fuel out your timming will be all over the place.


If you do get a chip for it www.dsmchips.com then you can have the global fuel setting changed to match the 850's and use the AFC for fine tunning.

Are you running a keydriver chip? What would you suggest for the stages? Something is wrong with the site, so I can't view the options they list. Or should I call, and do they burn a chip for you according to your setup? thanks.

 

[iiiwildfireiii]

Yeh but wont it pump more unnessicary fuel then not if you have like 1000cc's? Everyone says bigger bigger bigger so you have a lower IDC, but what are the drawbacks of this? I know there has to be some type of drawback.

Unnecessary fuel? Isn't the very purpose of DSMLink to help set and match injector pulse width so that the engine runs like stock? Dunno about you guys, but my DSMlink lets me set my global fuel injector size and its pulse width. Not to mention, you're not yanking out SO much airflow (and with it, a much more aggressive timing map) as you would with the SAFC.

Back to point. I have 650's and an SAFC. It was at the limit of what was able to be tuned *safely*. I watched the timing on my old logger. You CAN run bigger injectors...sure! I've seen 1000's run on an SAFC by a friend of mine. Did it run? Yes! Was it fast? Sure! Was it safe? No. His car is down right now for repairs.

850's on a SAFC...go for it if you want. You will be able to drive it provided you turn it all the way to -50%. But expect problems and headaches. If you're going for DSMLink or a chip later, then this might be okay to run on for a while.

Would I recommend it? No.

 

[Austin06]

Unnecessary fuel? Isn't the very purpose of DSMLink to help set and match injector pulse width so that the engine runs like stock? Dunno about you guys, but my DSMlink lets me set my global fuel injector size and its pulse width. Not to mention, you're not yanking out SO much airflow (and with it, a much more aggressive timing map) as you would with the SAFC.

Back to point. I have 650's and an SAFC. It was at the limit of what was able to be tuned *safely*. I watched the timing on my old logger. You CAN run bigger injectors...sure! I've seen 1000's run on an SAFC by a friend of mine. Did it run? Yes! Was it fast? Sure! Was it safe? No. His car is down right now for repairs.

850's on a SAFC...go for it if you want. You will be able to drive it provided you turn it all the way to -50%. But expect problems and headaches. If you're going for DSMLink or a chip later, then this might be okay to run on for a while.

Would I recommend it? No.

Well thats why i asked this question to begin with, because i didn't think the safc was enough.
So, now, I'm thinking running safc with a keydriver.
So, if i run that, would the 850's be okay with the chip and safc?
Sorry for any confusion here, just trying to learn the tuning asspect here

 

[tkelly27]

Yeh but wont it pump more unnessicary fuel then not if you have like 1000cc's? Everyone says bigger bigger bigger so you have a lower IDC, but what are the drawbacks of this? I know there has to be some type of drawback.

If you have the AFC, maybe. If you are retuning the base calibration, less likely, but again, maybe.

At lower engine speeds and load levels (where you need the least amount of fuel) you can run into a point where where the injector can't be properly opened for a short enough amount of time to deliver the proper amount of fuel. It can lead to a poor idle and some other unfun stuff in low rev cruzing.

Otherwise, most people get better gas mileage with bigger injectors as they have more control over their fuel. It's likely a side effect of the tuning that comes along with the bigger injectors, but they definitely work less hard in stock ranges so there is more to play around with.


My stance on the orignial question on this thread. You can pull fuel out of bigger injectors, but when you max out smaller ones, that's all your ever going to get out of them. In nearly 100% of cases it is better to have more fuel delivery available to you than you need (as opposed to less) when building a performance fuel system.

 

[nightspeed87]

Well thats why i asked this question to begin with, because i didn't think the safc was enough.
So, now, I'm thinking running safc with a keydriver.
So, if i run that, would the 850's be okay with the chip and safc?
Sorry for any confusion here, just trying to learn the tuning asspect here

( Check my profile )
But it will show you that iam running FIC 850cc injectors with
a stage 3 keydiver chip, a walbro hp 190, and I only have a evo3 16g.
If you have a means to control 1000cc injectors like stock then hell why not. But going too big
could mean theyd be sloppy at low rpms. Id say 950s would work perfect with a chip and youd never need
to upgrade those.
You always want to upgrade were you have room to grow.

My stance on the orignial question on this thread. You can pull fuel out of bigger injectors, but when you max out smaller ones, that's all your ever going to get out of them. In nearly 100% of cases it is better to have more fuel delivery available to you than you need (as opposed to less) when building a performance fuel system.

Now, personally I dont too much carefor safc, or having to do any kind of tweaking
myself to get a somewhat ideal setting by lieing to the ecu. But i do think a safc will
work well with a chipped ecu in terms of "touching up" the tune. The keydiver chip is one of the most simplest mods you
can do, and it doesnt have the drawbacks of the safc as far as injector sizing like everyone
else is mentioning.
Some ppl dont like the chipped route because they feel like they want to have something more adjustable instead of a locked in setting but jeff gets very close on to perfect with his tuning thru the chip and theres no need to worry about anything as far as the chip is concerned, but having a logger and a wideband always helps for you to determine that for yourself. I think the chipped ecu is the 2nd best thing next to dsm link.
I run these 850s like they came with the car stock, I am also able to run the Evo8/3g mass
air sensor with this chip like stock also and everything has been working great on this setup for the past 2 months.

Also another perk about the chip is that you get a handful of other useful tricks and
say you ever want to revise your chip Jeff at keydiver only charges 20 bucks to do it.

 

[Austin06]

( Check my profile )
But it will show you that iam running FIC 850cc injectors with
a stage 3 keydiver chip, a walbro hp 190, and I only have a evo3 16g.
If you have a means to control 1000cc injectors like stock then hell why not. But going too big
could mean theyd be sloppy at low rpms. Id say 950s would work perfect with a chip and youd never need
to upgrade those.
You always want to upgrade were you have room to grow.



Now, personally I dont too much carefor safc, or having to do any kind of tweaking
myself to get a somewhat ideal setting by lieing to the ecu. But i do think a safc will
work well with a chipped ecu in terms of "touching up" the tune. The keydiver chip is one of the most simplest mods you
can do, and it doesnt have the drawbacks of the safc as far as injector sizing like everyone
else is mentioning.
Some ppl dont like the chipped route because they feel like they want to have something more adjustable instead of a locked in setting but jeff gets very close on to perfect with his tuning thru the chip and theres no need to worry about anything as far as the chip is concerned, but having a logger and a wideband always helps for you to determine that for yourself. I think the chipped ecu is the 2nd best thing next to dsm link.
I run these 850s like they came with the car stock, I am also able to run the Evo8/3g mass
air sensor with this chip like stock also and everything has been working great on this setup for the past 2 months.

Also another perk about the chip is that you get a handful of other useful tricks and
say you ever want to revise your chip Jeff at keydiver only charges 20 bucks to do it.

Well that's good to know, and thanks for the info.
So pretty much, I can tell them what I'm running for a setup and have a chip for that setup?
For some reason that sounds to good to be true, but maybe not. Also, would running a maf-t setup also help me "fine tune" after a chip install? or is it not worth running that setup?
Thanks again and I appreciate all the responses here. -Austin

 

[nightspeed87]

Yes you tell Jeff what you want to run and he sets it up to near perfect. A safc could be used to help fine tune but not really needed with the chip. I like to keep thing as simple as possible when it comes to these kind of things thats why i went the chipped route.
I dont know much abotu the maft stuff so I wont comment on it, but I will say i do like my evo8 mass set up, I felt a difference in response when i put it, and the turbo and my recirculated 1g bov sounded way louder and more clean sounding. Also the air fuel ratios/ and timing maps and other features on the chip also aided in horsepower increases, like for instance i have a 11.1 open loop air fuel ratio now, and considering the stock a/f ratio is like a 9 to something, thats a big difference. The car will perform so much cleaner with a tune, and you gain more whp per lb of boost/ and per mod when its tuned as well.. Jeff also sells the eprom ecus, in which my old one had leaking caps so i bought a new one from him with the stage3 chip and he installed it and sent it to me and all I had to do was plug and play....Good luck with your decision.

 

[Austin06]

Yes you tell Jeff what you want to run and he sets it up to near perfect. A safc could be used to help fine tune but not really needed with the chip. I like to keep thing as simple as possible when it comes to these kind of things thats why i went the chipped route.
I dont know much abotu the maft stuff so I wont comment on it, but I will say i do like my evo8 mass set up, I felt a difference in response when i put it, and the turbo and my recirculated 1g bov sounded way louder and more clean sounding. Also the air fuel ratios/ and timing maps and other features on the chip also aided in horsepower increases, like for instance i have a 11.1 open loop air fuel ratio now, and considering the stock a/f ratio is like a 9 to something, thats a big difference. The car will perform so much cleaner with a tune, and you gain more whp per lb of boost/ and per mod when its tuned as well.. Jeff also sells the eprom ecus, in which my old one had leaking caps so i bought a new one from him with the stage3 chip and he installed it and sent it to me and all I had to do was plug and play....Good luck with your decision.

you got me feeling confident on this, thanks.
So what exactly is involved in the evo8 setup? What MAS do I need and other related parts?
I would like to keep the 1g BOV and recirculated, not a huge fan on the wsssh sound being loud.
Also, do I need a wideband, and just a good idea for monitering A/F?

 

[nightspeed87]

you got me feeling confident on this, thanks.
So what exactly is involved in the evo8 setup? What MAS do I need and other related parts?
I would like to keep the 1g BOV and recirculated, not a huge fan on the wsssh sound being loud.
Also, do I need a wideband, and just a good idea for monitering A/F?

Go to dsmchips.com and email Jeff about what you want to do, he'll take care of you.
Also for the evo8 mass set up, just find a evo8 or a 3rd gen eclipse mass air unit ( their both the same ) And you wire it in the same way youd wire in a 2nd mass, you can find the info on that on vfaq.. With some friends help took me 30 mins to set it up.
Oh and also another good thing is that the evo mass can read up to like 600 hp while the 2g is really only rated for 400 *( even though i know ppl have proved that wrong here and there. ) And dont worry about venting the bov , it will sound louder with the new mass set up anyways over the 1g/2g mass.... And yes get a wideband and logger while your at it because you will want those just to be safe, and its a good idea having them anyways with any dsm thats been tweaked, and yea thats about it...

View that website and look over what features you want, then tell Jeff and he'll see too it for like 120 bucks. Make sure you have a eprom first or youll have to buy one off of him or somewhere ...

 

[Austin06]

thanks for the info. man

 

[fwdeclipse]

I am also using jeffs keydiver chips. I have 950s and they idle like stock. You dont need the safc if you go this route like said above. He will set an afr and he can give you a certain timing advance if you want to run more timing. There are a shitload of options he offers.

 

[Austin06]

Yea, I'm actually getting excited about this...haha...Can't wait now, just need a fmic, and I'm on my way!