6bolt 4g63 proper fuel management and turbo to acheive 400 fwd hp?

[dberry]

I'm currently running a 16g Turbo with 650 CC injectors and stock internals, I am using a greddy boost controller with an Apexi safc2 to adjust fuel ratios, a 2g maf, with a greddy bof, I'm buying a hks ball bearing gt35 Turbo to use with the headder I have for an external wastegate and I'm about to buy h-beam rods and some pistons that will up my compression ratio to about 8.5-1,

With this kind of compression ratio jump I know ill get more HP but I also know ill need to dump more fuel because the uped compression will burn hotter, keep in mind my valves are stock and I don't know if they will stretch with that kind of heat, would it be a good idea to get sodium filled valves? And should I get larger injectors? I have a few ideas about heaving 8 injectors on a custom intake that I could Fab up but like I said my goal is to hit 400 fwd HP and be reliable for a daily driver.

I'm not new to building NA motors but I'm still working on learning more about Turbo motors

All suggestions are welcome

 

[Seamus]

I'm currently running a 16g Turbo with 650 CC injectors and stock internals, I am using a greddy boost controller with an Apexi safc2 to adjust fuel ratios, a 2g maf, with a greddy bof, I'm buying a hks ball bearing gt35 Turbo to use with the headder I have for an external wastegate and I'm about to buy h-beam rods and some pistons that will up my compression ratio to about 8.5-1,

With this kind of compression ratio jump I know ill get more HP but I also know ill need to dump more fuel because the uped compression will burn hotter, keep in mind my valves are stock and I don't know if they will stretch with that kind of heat, would it be a good idea to get sodium filled valves? And should I get larger injectors? I have a few ideas about heaving 8 injectors on a custom intake that I could Fab up but like I said my goal is to hit 400 fwd HP and be reliable for a daily driver.

I'm not new to building NA motors but I'm still working on learning more about Turbo motors

All suggestions are welcome

i'd do link or chip with 1150cc or bigger injectors. Keep the turbo and motor the same for now and try to get as much power as you can on e85. Then if you need more power, spend the money for a larger turbo and if neccessary build a motor.

Ohh and it wouldn't be the internet wihtout someone coming in here and reminding you of the need to get your car up to date on service first-just incase you didn't know that.

 

[WES_393]

The GT35r flows around 65 lb/min at it's peak if I'm not mistaken. 650cc injectors will only support ~30lb/min without stressing the injectors. So yes, you will need larger injectors to fully support that turbo. A second set of injectors is also not necessary for your power goals. But in all honesty, I think a GT35r is a bit overkill for 400hp. I would suggest something that spools quicker and flows much less. Especially on a daily driven car.

The stock 6-bolt 4g63 in good shape can hold well over 400hp so I would say skip the pistons and rods until a rebuild is needed. If and when you do bump the compression ratio to 8.5:1 there will be no need for sodium filled valves or even a significantly larger amount of fuel. Stock 2g 4g63 CR is 8.5 from the factory and many have bumped it up quite a bit higher with no ill effects so long as the tune is spot-on.

You will also need to ditch the SAFC. It's limited to about 650cc injectors, can't effectively log, and can't control timing. Not ideal for 400hp. DSMLink or Ostrich/Jackal would be your best bet for tuning.

 

[dberry]

Well I actually need to rebuild the motor so I figured I'd go out if the way to get better internals, I rolled the bearing on the number three connecting rod otherwise I was happy with my current set up, and about the e85 I heard it takes about twice as much fuel to run as pump gas would so bigger injectors would be a must right? Also is it more efficient to have a GM map than a maf? My Ecm is stock so would it be a good idea to make it eprom or just swap with a newer ecm?

 

[NHerron]

Yes you are correct, to run E85 you need much bigger injectors. In my observation, bigger vs smaller injectors are not that big of a step, moneywise. Bigger is okay so long as you get a good EMS like, DSMlink/ECMlink, (<same things) AEM, Megasquirt etc. they can be tuned to run like stock injectors.

According to ECMlink the 2G MAF can reliably report back a max of 50lb/min and the GM MAF 80lb/min. However, ECMlink actually has a feature called MAFclamp that can cure an out-flowed MAF . Of course, if you go with the 2G (or any MAF placed before BOV) you must recirculate the BOV -don't vent to atmosphere. maffrequencylimits [ECMTuning - wiki]

I forget which EVO (or if all have them) but the sodium filled valves can be found there and are a direct fit of course. Although, people do fine with a good set of aftermarkets, but there's nothing wrong with better cooling The EVO heads generally have a better valvetrain all around but unless you get a killer deal -just go full blown aftermarket.

You can check if your ECU is already EPROM in this link. If not, they can still convert to EPROM, but I'm not sure if it would just be cheaper to buy an already EPROM/socketed ECU from the classifieds. I have also seen people sell the whole setup here (classifieds) at a little cheaper price. epromid [ECMTuning - wiki]

Don't forget to look at ARP bolts, people usually get a good composite gasket and set of headstuds for 400hp. You don't need an MLS gasket, a good composite has been proven over and over again

I agree, if you will already be rebuilding, just make it bulletproof forged. Who knows, you might want more than 400, wanting 800+, end up doing an AWD swap and then you'd have to tear it all down again

 

[The1G_Guy]

I'm rebuilding my head and was looking into the stainless steel valves, not sure how well rated those are.

 

[NHerron]

Not alot have needed much more than SS valves, even with crazy setups up to 700hp. SS IMO would be fine but you can also search on google, just do "ss valves vs ...x... valves dsmtuners" and lots of stuff would pop up

 

[dberry]

So I'm going to buy a GM map, 1500 CC injectors, keep my current 16g, pray my ems is eprom and even if its not ill get it converted and socketed, and see what my car can do on e85.

My only question now is recommenced injectors, fuel rail, fuel pump and regulator and ill be set.

Also I still want to get h beam rods and pistons to utilize the full floating option just so there is better lubrication on the wrist pins, so as later down the line I can shoot for 600 HP, I don't really see needing more than that for HP.

 

[jrohner]

Keep the stock engine unless there's something wrong with it. Keep the 2G MAF until you get closer to 500hp, then get an Evo one.

400fwhp would be easy with a 16G if you run E85. For injectors, are you looking for ones for 400hp with a little room, or for 600hp of the future? For 400hp (on E85), 850's are definitely enough (I did more than that with 750's & my 16G, and was at 475 with 850's with my HX35). 1150's or better may be the way to go if you want a decent amount of room to grow without buying new injectors again soon.

 

[NHerron]

That kind of power, it would be silly not to build it up if he's already having to pull it apart. Has that power been done stock internals, well yeah. That doesn't mean every single 4g can handle 600hp or even 400hp, reliably. If you can build it up to be a better guarantee, why not? Just to prove a point?

IMO I'd bet it would work just fine to use the EVO MAF but I don't know if I would. I mean, they count more then a 2G MAF but not THAT much more. So once you start getting close to the 2G MAF max, at that point I'd bet it starts to become restrictive. Upgrade to a little bigger EVO MAF which is now already close enough to a restriction...I'd rather just go speed density or GM. Anybody have proof the stock MAF doesn't become a restriction when close to its max frequency limit, compared to speed density or other alternatives?

 

[Mr PopUps]

Someone i used to know had a 99 Spyder GS-T. He was running a TD-06 20G, FP (dont remember, maybe 255), FMIC, 660's, 3" t-back and AFC. He could walk C-5's all day with no problem. So dont tell the OP that 400 hp isnt possible without a Link or a bunch of other stuff.

 

[The1G_Guy]

I have 950cc injectors and my buddy runs 1000cc injectors thats more then enough I belive, not sure but 1500cc might be alittle over kill haha!

 

[jrohner]

Someone i used to know had a 99 Spyder GS-T. He was running a TD-06 20G, FP (dont remember, maybe 255), FMIC, 660's, 3" t-back and AFC. He could walk C-5's all day with no problem. So dont tell the OP that 400 hp isnt possible without a Link or a bunch of other stuff.

I sold my SAFC2 for more than I have in the REAL tuning solutions in either of my DSM's now (1G with DSMAP Werewolf; 2G with ECUFlash). Money ahead for something MUCH better.

 

[NHerron]

Someone i used to know had a 99 Spyder GS-T. He was running a TD-06 20G, FP (dont remember, maybe 255), FMIC, 660's, 3" t-back and AFC. He could walk C-5's all day with no problem. So dont tell the OP that 400 hp isnt possible without a Link or a bunch of other stuff.

Hello again Mr. PopUps

Are you suggesting a SAFC is possible with his intended setup? What are you saying he shouldn't need?

If the OP were to take FULL advantage of the GT35, it appears he would need at least 1150cc+ and that's for pump gas. As WES_393 has said already, the GT35r flows around 65lb/min.

Take a gander at these links, and tell me the SAFC can tackle this job.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl.../138583-turbo-comparison-fp3065-vs-gt35r.html

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/366003-injector-fuel-pump-supported-airflow.html



Okay back on topic.
dberry, OEM fuel rail is fine. It's plenty big but don't take my word for it, there's lots of proof on tuners. It fits -8AN fittings on each end, so that should tell you something

There's a few choices for fuel pumps here you'll have to check around but the most popular is the Walbro 255lph. The supra pump is supposed to be not as noisy.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/fre...098-what-size-volume-fuel-pump-do-i-need.html

Yes, you need a fuel regulator with any pump over 190lph, or the stock regulator will be overrun especially at idle. There is a bunch of bolt on package deals @ Extreme PSI for this. I just got finished with pieceing together my own setup and it's not much cheaper between fittings, gauge, and regulator. But it's up to you, I just wanted my own combo of colors to be different.

Fuelab & Aeromotive has got to be the top regulators around here but there are alternatives. Just don't do the eBay ones they seem to be hit or miss.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/359811-1g-base-fuel-pressure.html#post152095715
Aeromotive Regulators
Fuelab Regulators

 

[dberry]

do the flywheel bolts come off counter clockwise? Or are they reverse??

 

[NHerron]

Lefty loosy, righty tighty

 

[Mr PopUps]

Hello again Mr. PopUps

Are you suggesting a SAFC is possible with his intended setup? What are you saying he shouldn't need?

All i did was post someone elses experience with "400 fwd hp" as the title says.

 

[BogusSVO]

For the head, just get it rebuilt, stock valves have gone more than 400 HP many times.

If you want a good stainless steel valve at a fair price, look for Engnbldr on Ebay and get a set of his.

If you stay with stock cams or BC272/HKS272/Comp 101200 or some of the other in this line up, repalce your valve springs, a set of BC1100 with stock retainers will be just fine

If you go big, such as the Kelfords/FP4/GS cams, you will need to throw down for a good set of beehive springs from Kiggley/Ferrea/GS

Use the vition blue on both the intake and exhaust

And all will be good

 

[dberry]

I just pulled my motor for the build and the block is cracked at the number 3 cylinder, anyone have a 6 bolt block in good condition for sale?

 

[BogusSVO]

You can have a "dry" repair sleeve installed in your block, But you need/should have it bored over after the sleeve is installed.

 

[The1G_Guy]

I just pulled my motor for the build and the block is cracked at the number 3 cylinder, anyone have a 6 bolt block in good condition for sale?

Best bet would be to check DSMgrave yard, or go to the vendor announcements, heres a dsm junkyard. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/ven...ts-best-deals-year-new-car-97-rs-text-me.html

hes legit and great prices.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Replacement parts i got from my machine shop. for pistons.