680cc, to much of a good thing?

[Burnett03]

Last year my 91 tsi went 12.8@111mph on a 50 trim and 550 injectors..
I upgraded injectors to 660cc and a 60-1 turbo. Last night the car went 14.3@94mph Car wouldnt shift into 4th at all, but still it just didnt feel fast even on 112leaded gas. My question is, it seems like i'm getting to much timing advance with these 660cc injectors since i have to lean it out so much on the safc. Anyone have same results? I've got an eprom on the way and i'm going to probably get a dsmchip.com chip for it and hope for the best. Timing at WOT was at around 29degrees. Seemed a bit high. I'm hoping the studderbox feature will also improve my 60ft times. Will it allow me to build boost in neutral? Whats the usual delivery time for his chip? Thanks

 

[DSMTalonAWD51]

wow 29's a lot of timing even for 660's. I get 21 degrees on 680's. What boost are you running? When you run race gas do you lean it out more? If you dont its not gonna make much of a difference, but i guess in your case it wouldnt be a good idea to lean it out anymore due to timing. Sounds like that chip is the best way to go for you.

 

[notractiongst]

what are your high throttle settings on the afc?
yes the studderbox will let you you build boost in nuetral a few lbs at best but better then nothing.

 

[Burnett03]

what are your high throttle settings on the afc?
yes the studderbox will let you you build boost in nuetral a few lbs at best but better then nothing.

thanks for the replies guys. 29timing was on race gas leaned out... I am leaned out on the maft for 680cc injectors.. Then im leaned out for wot on the maft about -20% then another -15% on the safc.. I know its odd that i have to lean it out so much. What kind of timing can i expect with a chip from dsmchips.com? Around 19-21 i assume? Think it will make the car faster just with a chip?

 

[Steve93Talon]

Pfft, I was seeing 28-29 deg. on 550s, hacked MAF, and 14b. If you're on race gas, tune it so there's 0-5 counts of knock and let it loose. You don't mention if it was knocking. Not trying to be a smart ass, but why would you think that running less timing would make more power?

 

[Burnett03]

Pfft, I was seeing 28-29 deg. on 550s, hacked MAF, and 14b. If you're on race gas, tune it so there's 0-5 counts of knock and let it loose. You don't mention if it was knocking. Not trying to be a smart ass, but why would you think that running less timing would make more power?

car wasnt knocking. I know timing is good but seems like to much and overduing it would hurt. Im sure a dsmchip wont hurt me..

 

[andymoraitis]

I know you must be pretty disappointed, but once you try that chip you'll see a big difference. To answer your questions, the studdebox will allow boost building in neutral, but your speed sensor on the tranny has to be in working condition, otherwise the studderbox will engage while driving the car (not fun, believe me). As far as delivery time, Jeff gets these out within 24 hours of the order so you should have it quickly.

Regarding the chip, unless you specify otherwise, it'll come with the factory 9.5:1 A/F map which is pig rich and timing will cap at 16 degrees. The injector control will be dead on however and since you have an AFC, you'll be able to use it to lean out in smaller increments and therefore see much less timing advance than the 29 you were getting. Based on how much you had to lean out at the track and the nasty advance you were getting, I would have run on 93 pump since all the 112 did was make a bad condition worse.

Get that chip in there, tune for pump and then add some 112 and retune with the AFC. I'd bet you'll be trapping much better and haulin' the mail.

Good luck!

Andy

 

[Burnett03]

Here is where im also confused. Since he has the chip made for 650 injectors i wont need to lean it out, so all i will get on pump gas is 16degrees timing and a very rich setting? Doesnt sound appealing.. Maybe i should get it for 550 injectors and then lean it out to 650injectors to get some timing?

 

[andymoraitis]

Keep in mind that Jeff calibrates the chips to be able to run gobs of boost on pump gas. As an example, with a stock sidemount and my Big 16G pushing 21 psi in warm weather, I was unable to induce knock on the 9.5:1 map and 16 degrees. As a matter of fact, I'd trap at 100 mph no matter how much boost I added because there was no way to lean it out. When I ran the 11:1 map last night, it trapped 105 in very similar conditions with 5 counts of knock and similar weather conditions.

The mentality behind these chips is that they will get you close to where you need to be, but some tuning is required. I would contact Jeff, have him make your chip 11:1 and still adjust for the bigger injectors. You'll still be able to lean out a bit since his calibration isn't perfect and you'll definitely feel a huge difference over a 9.5:1 map. Furthermore, because you'll be leaning out a bit, you'll see timing go up to maybe 18-19 and this is more than good enough. The great thing is that when you really want to yank on the boost, you can add race fuel and lean it out more with the AFC with fairly small correction values. I think you should also advise him of your question and see what he thinks. Jeff is one smart cookie and know his stuff.

Let me know if that helps,

Andy

 

[Burnett03]

Keep in mind that Jeff calibrates the chips to be able to run gobs of boost on pump gas. As an example, with a stock sidemount and my Big 16G pushing 21 psi in warm weather, I was unable to induce knock on the 9.5:1 map and 16 degrees. As a matter of fact, I'd trap at 100 mph no matter how much boost I added because there was no way to lean it out. When I ran the 11:1 map last night, it trapped 105 in very similar conditions with 5 counts of knock and similar weather conditions.

The mentality behind these chips is that they will get you close to where you need to be, but some tuning is required. I would contact Jeff, have him make your chip 11:1 and still adjust for the bigger injectors. You'll still be able to lean out a bit since his calibration isn't perfect and you'll definitely feel a huge difference over a 9.5:1 map. Furthermore, because you'll be leaning out a bit, you'll see timing go up to maybe 18-19 and this is more than good enough. The great thing is that when you really want to yank on the boost, you can add race fuel and lean it out more with the AFC with fairly small correction values. I think you should also advise him of your question and see what he thinks. Jeff is one smart cookie and know his stuff.

Let me know if that helps,

Andy

I currently run about 23psi on pump gas with my 60-1 and water injection.. I think i will tell him to do the 11:1 map. What will my timing be? Still 16? Or will i be able to lean it out a bit to get a bit more. Im looking for around 21degrees at the top of 3rd. I appreciate all the information. I think he's out of town so he cant respond to my emails. I like the idea of leaning it out a bit to get more timing but if he sets it for 650 i wont be able to lean it out and get more timing.. Still wondering if i should get 550 compensation... Or maybe i should shut my mouth and take your advice! Thanks

 

[andymoraitis]

Those are awesome numbers on pump! Well what you COULD do is have Jeff make you two chips and believe me they're worth the money. Sorry to use examples, but I have a street chip at 11:1 and 16 and a race chip at 11:1 and 23. Because you use water injection, I bet you'd see plenty of gain with an 11:1 and 21-22 degrees which should feel positively beastly on the street. You could log each one, tune for 1-3 counts of knock on the top end of third and back the boost down a bit or add a bit of fuel.

I'd run it just like I mentioned it above with two different chips using the same A/F and different timing maps. If you can use the 21-22 on pump gas, you could STILL tune for race fuel by leaning out the AFC and that would likely give you a bit more. With your setup, I don't see why you couldn't have the best of both worlds. While most people think 11:1 is still somewhat rich, I find that if you have the correct supporting mods that it can be a great place to start while still keeping the motor safe.

Let me know if that works for you. FYI, Jeff probably IS out of town since he usually responds quickly. As him what he thinks and I'm sure he'll steer you in the right direction, but I think you'd do great with either one of those.

Let us know what happens eh?

Andy

 

[Burnett03]

my chip is ordered. i was hoping to get it early next week but i guess it wont ship out till mid next week. I got:
CEL Shift Light
adjustable stutterbox
NLTS
640CC injectors
no more phantom knock
octane value reset
and whatever else i forgot. We'll see how it works out, im a bit concerned i wont get the timing i want on pump gas but ah well i guess.

 

[andymoraitis]

Did you have a leaner A/F map burned in or will you still be on the 9.5:1?

Just wondering,

Andy

 

[Burnett03]

Did you have a leaner A/F map burned in or will you still be on the 9.5:1?

Just wondering,

Andy

im assuming its the stock map? Im going to raise my fuel pressure a bit and lean out with my safc so that should make things ok i assume

 

[andymoraitis]

Again, it's just a suggestion, but I'd really have them make an 11:1. If you already have injector compensation and the map is 9.5:1 on the existing chip, adding fuel pressure and leaning out more will only give you more timing. I'd go 11:1, have the map set to a max of 18 degrees, use injector compensation for 640's and have a little more wiggle room to lean out a bit more to increase timing to the range you want. I bring this up simply because I don't think you're going to get the effect you want otherwise.

Chips are cheap. Make two and log them both. Cookies to donuts says the 11:1 will make some serious power at comparable boost.

Just my 2 cents,

Andy

 

[LessIsMore]

Why couldn't you shift into fourth? Is it a disengagement problem or something wrong with fourth gear?

 

[Burnett03]

Why couldn't you shift into fourth? Is it a disengagement problem or something wrong with fourth gear?

not sure, i think its the gear.. when the car/tranny gets hot it likes to grind to 4th. Syncromesh is in it now and things are getting better.. Atleast i hope soo..

So i just emailed nate and said to go with a 10:5 a/f. Should i email him one more time for an 11:1? 11:1 is leaner, correct? The car knocks 3-4counts as it sits right now and 23degrees timing advance so i dont want to stray to far from here and only get 16-18timing

 

[andymoraitis]

10.5:1 would be a fine place to start. You could always take a little bit of fuel away with the AFC since the injector compensation won't be dead on. Try the 10.5:1 and see how it is. And yes, the wider the ratio to 1 the leaner it is. (i.e. 12:1 is leaner than 9:1).

Let's use an example with respect to timing:

If I ran an 11:1 with 16 degrees and had 1-3 counts at 22 psi or a 10.5:1 with 19 degrees that gave me 5-7 counts of knock at 20 psi, I'd make more power with the 11:1 and lower timing because I can run more boost on less knock. As a matter of fact, this was the case for me, but results do vary. Provided the turbo isn't out of it's efficiency range, boost will always make more horsepower than timing.

Andy

 

[Burnett03]

nate cant make me a different map since jeff is out of town so im stuck with the 9:5 map.. i hope it doesnt kill me, and i hope this chip can make the car a bit faster. thanks

 

[andymoraitis]

You could always log it, take out some fuel pressure and lean out a bit with the AFC. I'd still have Jeff make a second chip though, but that's me. The fact that you water inject makes the car act as if it's on race fuel the whole time under boost. You'll still be rich and that's why that leaner 11:1 map with say 20 degrees advance would be much better.

Let us know how it works for you,

Andy

 

[Burnett03]

You could always log it, take out some fuel pressure and lean out a bit with the AFC. I'd still have Jeff make a second chip though, but that's me. The fact that you water inject makes the car act as if it's on race fuel the whole time under boost. You'll still be rich and that's why that leaner 11:1 map with say 20 degrees advance would be much better.

Let us know how it works for you,

Andy

i think you meant "add fuel and take away airflow to get more timing" Subtracting fuel pressure would make me need to add in fuel via safc and that would take timing away.