3rd gear pull knocking need help!

[matt98eclipse]

What do you guys think about this pull?? Im tired of trying to tune this dam thing


TIM O2 volts TPS MAF RPM KNOCK INJDUTY

39° 0.76V 20.0% 182.4Hz 3406 0 7
39° 0.04V 22.0% 182.4Hz 3375 0 9
38° 0.80V 20.0% 182.4Hz 3438 0 7
39° 0.76V 55.7% 364.8Hz 3469 0 23
33° 0.90V 97.3% 465.5Hz 3531 0 28
29° 0.90V 97.3% 534.7Hz 3594 0 25
27° 0.90V 87.1% 616.4Hz 3688 0 36
28° 0.94V 97.6% 723.4Hz 3813 0 42
26° 0.90V 87.1% 855.4Hz 3938 0 54
23° 0.96V 97.3% 1025.3Hz 4063 0 61
22° 0.94V 87.1% 1056.7Hz 4156 0 71
21° 0.96V 86.7% 1050.4Hz 4313 0 75
24° 0.92V 97.3% 1063.0Hz 4438 0 66
20° 0.96V 86.7% 1075.6Hz 4469 4 68
22° 0.96V 97.3% 1132.2Hz 4625 8 61
17° 0.92V 95.3% 1125.9Hz 4656 8 81
17° 0.92V 90.6% 1201.4Hz 4844 7 76
22° 0.92V 95.3% 1226.6Hz 4844 7 87
15° 0.92V 94.5% 1283.2Hz 4969 9 91
18° 0.92V 95.3% 1320.9Hz 5094 9 80
17° 0.96V 87.1% 1352.4Hz 5219 8 85
19° 0.90V 93.3% 1390.1Hz 5250 8 91
22° 0.94V 97.3% 1396.4Hz 5344 8 78
17° 0.94V 93.3% 1453.0Hz 5438 11 90
17° 0.96V 93.3% 1503.3Hz 5500 11 91
21° 0.90V 93.3% 1541.1Hz 5531 15 101
21° 0.94V 87.1% 1566.2Hz 5656 18 99
16° 0.94V 87.1% 1604.0Hz 5781 18 120
21° 0.96V 90.6% 1604.0Hz 5781 17 101
18° 0.86V 97.3% 1604.0Hz 5938 17 120
22° 0.86V 87.1% 1604.0Hz 5969 17 102
21° 0.96V 97.3% 1604.0Hz 6094 16 105
21° 0.96V 97.6% 1604.0Hz 6188 16 108
17° 0.94V 93.3% 1604.0Hz 6281 15 127
16° 0.90V 97.6% 1604.0Hz 6281 15 127
16° 0.86V 93.3% 1604.0Hz 6375 14 106
19° 0.76V 7.8% 471.8Hz 5875 4 8
45° 0.12V 97.3% 981.2Hz 5656 0 57
28° 0.94V 97.3% 975.0Hz 4938 0 67
26° 0.90V 69.0% 1019.0Hz 4875 0 25
34° 0.76V 7.8% 94.4Hz 4938 0 6
45° 0.94V 7.5% 56.6Hz 4781 0 6

 

[turboglenn]

It looks like you're trying to be a little aggressive with timing early on in the RPM band bringing on more heat and eventually more detonation. THat is, if the first 20 lines of the log are assumed to have gone WOT before 4k RPM's

 

[matt98eclipse]

I got on wot around 3500 rpm witch is before the 20 lines your talking about. Im sorry but what do you mean im trying to be a little agressive with my timing? Sorry new to this.

 

[spyderturbo007]

According to your profile, your just tuning with the GM-MAF?

You need to figure out why your TPS is jumping around all over the place. Also, unless your running really freakin' high boost, there is no way your IDC should be at 120% when you have 680cc injectors. Have you checked for boost leaks?

 

[matt98eclipse]

I am just tuning with the maft.

For some reason on my datalogger it always shows my tps bounceing around even with a brand new one?? My water temp even bounces from like say 206 to 200 or so. Im also still haveing problems with my fuel trims never moving from 100%

I have checked for boost leaks and i only have 1 tiny one not enought to cause me to have such high inj dutys! I think im just running extremly rich what do you think??

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

I'd check your throttle cable. It's kinda hard to diagnose with the TPS all over the board. I'd fix that first and then try pulling another log.

 

[matt98eclipse]

I have checked the cable. I opened the throttle body all the way by hand and looked at the data logger and get the same resaults how it bounces around even with a new tps.

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

Well, assuming that you ARE at WOT, the timing is really aggressive. Normally you should see your timing dip into the single digits at full boost and then slowly/steadily start climbing.

You mentioned that you hit WOT around 3500 RPM. Try logging another pull from about 2300 RPM to Redline and FLOOR IT starting at 2300 RPM. I know the first few times I logged I wasn't hitting 99% on my TPS because my foot wasn't ALL THE WAY DOWN on the gas pedal.

From what you've already posted, I highly doubt this is the case, especially since it's "bouncing" all over the place.

 

[matt98eclipse]

Do you think its possible my ecu is bad?? Because i cant get my fuel trims to change, my tps always bounces , my injector duty at idle bounces from 1.5% to 0.7% for some reason. The only thing i could think would be causing this is a bad ecu.

Ill double check to make sure i have my timing set to 5 advance and see what happens.

 

[turboglenn]

I'm not sure on the ECU being bad, but it does seem ot be doing strange things. What i meant about aggressive timing it what 95carbon posted. The numbers should be a lot lower (9-14) when you first go WOT and will slowly climb with RPM as long as there's no knock. Yours is starting at 21 or so and causing the knock to come on like it is. Are your tricking the ECU to thinking it's getting a lot less air to get your fuel trims and WOT AFR's right? If so that's what's making the timing so high. When the ECU thinks it's getting a smaller amount of air coming in, it starts with a more aggressive timing curve, the lower the ECU thinks the air is, the more timing you get. And this isn't always a good thing, High timing like that can lead to motor killing detonation under boost on pump gas especially

 

[matt98eclipse]

Theres no way that i would be tricking the ECU and to be honist right now i dont even have a filter on my inlet of the turbo (Very Dangers i know)! So what do you guys recomment me doing with this problem?

 

[matt98eclipse]

It seems like everything on my datalogger bounces around.

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

If you have the OEM 450's still, try dropping those in and then logging another run with your MAFT zero'd out. Let's get a good baseline first.

TurboGlenn... is it possible that he's running so aggresively to compensate for the 680's he got in there now? Can a MAFT even tune for 680's?? I know that the bigger injectors you use, the MORE you have to trick the ECU. How aggressive does timing usually get with 650's and an AFC?

 

[matt98eclipse]

I dont have the stock 450's anymore but i could get some to try it out.

 

[Black_Bullet]

If you have the OEM 450's still, try dropping those in and then logging another run with your MAFT zero'd out. Let's get a good baseline first.

TurboGlenn... is it possible that he's running so aggresively to compensate for the 680's he got in there now? Can a MAFT even tune for 680's?? I know that the bigger injectors you use, the MORE you have to trick the ECU. How aggressive does timing usually get with 650's and an AFC?

First off, when doing your logs you dont have to log volts, o2 volts, or MAFs.
So next log just do timing, rpm, IDC, and knock. Thats all you need to log while tuning
most of the time.

The MAFT will do just like a SAFC in tricking the ecu about the airflow it has to inject less fuel for bigger injector compensation....

Problem is this puts you on a different gm/rev load row with your timing
and this is why you have really high timing advance across the entire power band.
Obviously the 680s or whatever injectors you have are too big to be compensated properly.
Ive actually heard 650s are the limits in keeping the timing reasonable with your current tuning limitation.
The timing on that log looked more like race gas type advance used by someone who can actually control the heat.

How much boost was this on.
With that kind of timing id imagen youd have knock with anything over 15-16 psi
unless you counter it with some meth injection, higher octane, E85 etc.

My first suggestion is turn the boost down a good bit. Hopefully your not creeping on that 16g?
Then do as the other guy said and put your stock injectors back in to get a baseline.
Doing so will lower your timing. As long as you dont lean out too much your car should be safer like that. Your knock is almost at the point were you have to worry about engine longevity.

I dont understand why your over 100 % IDC. One point of the pull you reached 120% which is not good at all.

This is why tuning with safc or a Maft is crap.
You wont get a perfect knock free high boost tune till you switch to DSMLINK or a chipped Eprom Ecu with a keydiver chip or something that gives you full timing control.

 

[matt98eclipse]

Turboglenn i could really use some help on this situation. What do you recomment me doing?

After driving it around for a little bit i also noticed if i was to just smash the throttle to the floor it kinda bugs alittle but if i just get on it slowly and easy to a wot it pull just fine and hard!!

I would really nice to get my car running good.

 

[turboglenn]

If you have the OEM 450's still, try dropping those in and then logging another run with your MAFT zero'd out. Let's get a good baseline first.

TurboGlenn... is it possible that he's running so aggresively to compensate for the 680's he got in there now? Can a MAFT even tune for 680's?? I know that the bigger injectors you use, the MORE you have to trick the ECU. How aggressive does timing usually get with 650's and an AFC?

That's my first guess. THe MAF-T is probably hiding too much airflow from the ECU and the ECU is giving a LOT of timing causing the knock. Have you tried dialing back to stock injectors and running it?

The "bugging out" is probably a lean condition if i had to guess, does it kinda gasp, then take off hard a few seconds later?

Also, do you have a wideband you can use to make sure that you are not dangerously lean?

If i don't check in here in this thread enough, just PM and tell me to look at this... I'll try and help as much as i can ( always do)

 

[matt98eclipse]

Thanxs man for the help i really do appreciate the help. I have a set of 460 from a rx7 that should work but i just need to get some injector seals for them so i cant try that right now.

"does it kinda gasp, then take off hard a few seconds later?" This is exactly what its doing!

I dont have a wideband yet.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Turboglenn i could really use some help on this situation. What do you recomment me doing?

After driving it around for a little bit i also noticed if i was to just smash the throttle to the floor it kinda bugs alittle but if i just get on it slowly and easy to a wot it pull just fine and hard!!

I would really nice to get my car running good.

I guess you didnt find my post worth anything because you gave no sign of ackwoledgement and i gave you a full summary of whats likely going on with your tune and what i (and the other guys who posted before me ) thought you should do...

"does it kinda gasp, then take off hard a few seconds later?" This is exactly what its doing!

I dont have a wideband yet.

Im not going to comment on using Rx7 injectors but
as far as the gasping, its probably just going too lean and running up into too much knock and pulling timing in different times in different amounts based on different engine loads.
Thats why when you log you start at 2500-3000 rpm and go full throttle from there.

You didnt respond to how much boost this was on.

Once again, what i think would be the best thing for you to do right now is

***Lower your boost down a good amount till you see no more knock.

***Put your stock injectors back in to get your timing back normal

Then try tuning it with the stock injectors and see how much boost you can get back
( Id suspect 16psi would put you right under the 100% IDC zone.)

But this way you wont be knocking any more and youll have reasonable timing advance.
Your knock may not have harmed anything yet because ive seen worse, but your testing your motor
every time you do a pull.

Then, at this point If you ever wanted to push your setup with more boost
you'd have to just save up for DSMLINK, or a Eprom chipped ecu combo so you can then later, reinstall your 680s
and have a good tune that will allow for the high boost you'd likely want to run...

If you dont have a wideband that should be on the list also.
Playing with your fuel could help some, but you dont want to tune to rich because that could also lead to rich knock.

So thats pretty much what you'll have to do if the aggressive timing advance from the 680 is truely your issue.

Theres nothing much else to do but what i mentioned, short of just running race gas all the time or getting meth which i mentioned that already also...

 

[Zenja]

I very strongly think that your problem is electrical issues. You're right about noticing how the datalogger numbers jump around and that's not normal at all. It's pretty clear to me what the problem appears to me and it's not what everyone else is talking about.

For example, look at your timing advance values. They jump around all over the place from one moment to another. This is impossible to happen under normal operation and it indicates that the ECU is reading very erratic mass airflow values. The timing and injector pulse width reflect this because both are directly tied to the "load" of the engine. Basically, the ECU is seeing false and erratic airflow mass readings. This isn't coming from the MAS airflow Hz because these are frequency based and erratic voltage readings shouldn't affect it (and according to the datalogs, they don't). Your intake air temp sensor might be reading false and erratic readings which would cause the mass airflow to be read wrong. It could be any number of things throwing off the reading (and it's probably a combination of things, all stemming from one problem).

But either way, it's not just the airflow that's affected because you also said that stuff like your coolant temperature values jump around. All those numbers are translated directly from sensor voltages and it seems like the ECU is reading erratic voltages on all those sensors. I can't tell you exactly what your problem is but I bet that it's ECU or wiring related. It's electrical in some way.

 

[matt98eclipse]

Black bullet i did find your post very helpfull man i just wanted to get other poeples opinion too.

I did turn the boost down to only 9 pounds and for some reason no matter how much i lean or richen it up i still cant get it knock free no matter what i get counts of knock with these dam injectors.

I dont have anouther set of 450's so all i have are the 460 rx7 injectors.

I do agree with Zenja everything thing on my datalogger is bounceing around my water temp,tps, ex...
and its not suppose to be doing this.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Black bullet i did find your post very helpfull man i just wanted to get other poeples opinion too.

I did turn the boost down to only 9 pounds and for some reason no matter how much i lean or richen it up i still cant get it knock free no matter what i get counts of knock with these dam injectors.

I dont have anouther set of 450's so all i have are the 460 rx7 injectors.

I do agree with Zenja everything thing on my datalogger is bounceing around my water temp,tps, ex...
and its not suppose to be doing this.

Yea on 9lbs you shouldnt be getting knock.

Give the RX7 injectors a shot but make sure that Rotary doesnt have a different type of injector. I dont know anything about Rotaries but spray patter, and what impedence it is etc could all be a factor in whether they can be run properly on a DSM or not.

How is your ecu, open the board and check for bad capacitors from acid damage which is common in these cars... Ive seen someones ecu start going back and everything else got erratic.

Have you ever tried any sea foam engine cleaner in your motor?

What plugs do you run?

Are you positive you dont have any boost leaks, and that your knock sensor isnt old and causing random knock, and also make sure that your IAT's arent getting too high.

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

Yea on 9lbs you shouldnt be getting knock.

How is your ecu, open the board and check for bad capacitors from acid damage which is common in these cars... Ive seen someones ecu start going back and everything else got erratic.

+1 I know that this is fairly common on 1g ECU's. I'm not sure if you have a buddy with another 1g, but maybe try swapping ECU'a and seeing what your logs look like. You really need to get a good baseline before trying to tune.

 

[matt98eclipse]

I checked my ecu a little while back and nothing seemed to be back but i will check again later today and get back with you guys.

Im running the NGKBPR6ES plugs gapped right at .28

I am positive i dont have any boost leaks. When i do a boost leak test from 18 psi it hold for a good minute and a half. The ONLY air i hear leaking is from my valve cover breather and dipstick!!
My pcv valve isnt leaking and i know for sure cus i even pinched the hose from the IM to PCV and also the hose from my oil return line. So air is still leaking into my crankcase some how and the only thing i could think of is my head gasket is leaking witch is causing my low compression results on one side of the motor.

 

[matt98eclipse]

Also when the motor is warmed up i get this wierd whisling sound comeing from my valve cover breather when nothings hooked up to it.