388.9 AWD HP on Pump Gas

[The Flash]

I seem to have hit a ceiling and I can't break the 400hp mark on pump gas. Here's a picture of my best dyno run on pump gas (peak hp 388.9 @ 6150rpm):

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This was my first time at the dyno and I seem to have to run the car incredibly rich (10:1 AF) with no timing (15 degrees max) to make decent power. I'm wondering if this is normal? Most of the runs would experience knock starting at 6k. As you see in the dyno photo, HP stopped climbing at 6k because the timing got pulled by the knock. Am I trying to run too much boost? I was also concerned that running a 10:1 AF ratio might be washing down my cylinders, causing engine damage. Is this possible?

This car is a street car, and if at all possible, I'd like to keep it running on pump gas. Any tips you could offer me that would help me get max power out of pump gas would be greatly appreciated as well. Also, have any of you experienced good results with fuel additives/octane boosters/etc.? If so, what were they?

Thanks!!

 

[JiggahMan]

Very nice run, hopefully I can get anywhere near that. As for fuel additives, there's this stuff called Torco that really does work well. There's a thread on here somewhere about it, but I'm too lazy to search.

 

[definitiveno]

alky




/thread

 

[98TsiAWD]

How much boost are you running? I run 21psi on pump and made 403whp at 16 degrees timing (stock). I also wasnt able to run any more timing than that. This was at about 11:1 a/f. I cant seem to run over 18 degrees timing on racegas with just 24psi, so I have some kind of issue also.

 

[The Flash]

Boost was set at 24psi.

 

[definitiveno]

Boost was set at 24psi.

Compression?

 

[The Flash]

8.5:1 Cr

 

[GVR4592]

Could be an intercooling issue, hot intake temps are a killer.

 

[98eclipseRS]

alky




/thread

Couldn't have said it better. I am runnign similar boost numbers(23psi) and pump gas and made 402fwhp. Any more boost and it would knock any more timming(17degrees max) and it would knock. I am going to be running meth injection, 75/25% mix(meth to water) and I should be able to turn the boost up another 10 pounds or so on pump gas. The problem with trying to run strictly pump and acheive these numbers you have to run an obnoxiously rich afr(myself I am running a 10.1-10.3:1 afr) to keep from knocking. This hurts performance probably just as much as it would to be getting knock. By adding a meth injection/alky injection system you could lean out the a/f mixture. Add boost and timming. You whould easily be able to see well over 400whp on pump if you do something like this.

 

[c5chris]

Flash,

Congrats on the numbers. Im sure you can get more out of that FP turbo

I love your car too.

 

[The Flash]

Thanks for all the input guys!!!

I do still have one unanswered question from my original post. Can running a 10:1 A/F ratio cause premature engine damage?

Today I was messing around with the car (again...) and I noticed that setting the base timing retarded 5 degrees improved how it ran (all around) and it made the timing numbers from DSM Link make more sense. Is it possible that since I'm using a 6 bolt motor and timing cover in a 2g car with a stock 7 bolt crank pulley can cause my timing marks to be off 10 degrees?

Do you guys have an recommendations for a good water/alcohol injection system that isn't outrageously expensive and overly complicated?

I plan to be hitting the dyno again within the next few weeks. I just put the finishing putting the car back together about a month ago, so I've still got a lot of adjustments to make to it. I'll let you guys know how it goes! The 400hp ceiling WILL be broken.

 

[98eclipseRS]

Do you guys have an recommendations for a good water/alcohol injection system that isn't outrageously expensive and overly complicated?

:

Friend of mine is using the snow performance one, everything looked to be of good quality. He just finished installing it the other day so i'll let you know how it goes when he gets on the dyno and starts tunning for it.

 

[GVR4592]

10:1 shouldn't damage anything, but if you are at 10:1 a/f to prevent knock them chances are your intake temps are pretty hot. Alky/water injection can help, but it seems like an intercooling issue. www.Coolingmist.com for inexpensive alky/wi kits Maybe pick up one of their intake air temp guages to, so you can see what your post intercooler intake temps are with and without the water injection.

 

[Staytuned]

I think you doing alright. I made 351 AWHP on a Mustang dyno this summer. This was using an AFC, WB and pocketlogger to tune. On 94 octane and 25 Psi of boost. Your setup is very similar to mine minus the head and SMIM. I would look into water/meth injection or run more race gas to make more power safer.

 

[diambo4life]

Can running a 10:1 A/F ratio cause premature engine damage?

It's a possibility. Personally, I don't like that method of making power...adding a bunch of fuel to surpress knock. You should be able to make decent power with a more sensible 11.0'ish AFR. Very good numbers either way.

 

[jaredgsx]

Do you guys have an recommendations for a good water/alcohol injection system that isn't outrageously expensive and overly complicated?

i made my own kit for 110 bucks, pm me if you want the parts list.

 

[Mellon]

10.0:1 is rediculously rich and likely to fuel your oil.. not good.

You'll make as much or more power by getting the a/f to 11:5:1 and retarding timing enough that knock goes away. If you retard timing and knock doesn't go away start lowering the boost.

 

[98eclipseRS]

10.0:1 is rediculously rich and likely to fuel your oil.. not good.

You'll make as much or more power by getting the a/f to 11:5:1 and retarding timing enough that knock goes away. If you retard timing and knock doesn't go away start lowering the boost.

You will not foul your fuel by running a 10.1 afr, I do agree with you that it is obniouxiuosly rich but tring to make big numbers on pump gas is rather hard. and 11.5 afr is something you would run on race gas not 91 or 93 octane.

 

[Mellon]

I run 11.5 on pump daily and 12.0-12.5 on c16 race gas.

1/4 times 11.99 on pump @ 15psi and 11.50's on race gas @ 20psi (last years setup)

works for me

using fuel as a crutch to mask an obvious timing problem is a nasty way to do it. get some timing control and get that knock under control so you don't have to drown the cylinders.

 

[pneumo]

I run 11.5 on pump daily and 12.0-12.5 on c16 race gas.

1/4 times 11.99 on pump @ 15psi and 11.50's on race gas @ 20psi (last years setup)

works for me

using fuel as a crutch to mask an obvious timing problem is a nasty way to do it. get some timing control and get that knock under control so you don't have to drown the cylinders.

I agree Use an A/F ratio that burns completely, then set the timing to the edge of knock, not beyond.

 

[MrPikolo]

Alky injection just like everyone else says, it should make all the difference.

Along with a better air/fuel ratio you should be able to get over 400 whp without much trouble at all.

 

[miragetbo1997cc]

What are your Duty cycles at 6K rpm? My car would do the same thing at 6-6.5k.DC was 112% at 11.7 AFR and bamm,instant knock.

 

[ceedawg]

I seem to have hit a ceiling and I can't break the 400hp mark on pump gas. Here's a picture of my best dyno run on pump gas (peak hp 388.9 @ 6150rpm):

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

This was my first time at the dyno and I seem to have to run the car incredibly rich (10:1 AF) with no timing (15 degrees max) to make decent power. I'm wondering if this is normal? Most of the runs would experience knock starting at 6k. As you see in the dyno photo, HP stopped climbing at 6k because the timing got pulled by the knock. Am I trying to run too much boost? I was also concerned that running a 10:1 AF ratio might be washing down my cylinders, causing engine damage. Is this possible?

This car is a street car, and if at all possible, I'd like to keep it running on pump gas. Any tips you could offer me that would help me get max power out of pump gas would be greatly appreciated as well. Also, have any of you experienced good results with fuel additives/octane boosters/etc.? If so, what were they?

Thanks!!

412awhp 22psi 93 oct no knock,also replaced knock sensor. Try that!If it still knocks ,knock off some timing.

 

[1g4my2g]

Turn the boost down 2psi then tune for 11:3:1 to 11:5:1 afr. You have no business being in the 10's on any type of gas. That is pig rich and really is done from the factory on most turbo cars for pure safety. You will not blow up the car in the low 11:s afr! You may pick up horsepower by turning the boost down and tuning it this way. Ohh and don't forget to change your fuel filter and check the gaps on the plugs. Many people forget the little things. It only takes one stupid thing to stop your HP goals! Good Luck!

 

[GVR4592]

Turn the boost down 2psi then tune for 11:3:1 to 11:5:1 afr. You have no business being in the 10's on any type of gas. That is pig rich and really is done from the factory on most turbo cars for pure safety. You will not blow up the car in the low 11:s afr! You may pick up horsepower by turning the boost down and tuning it this way. Ohh and don't forget to change your fuel filter and check the gaps on the plugs. Many people forget the little things. It only takes one stupid thing to stop your HP goals! Good Luck!

Check the date on the original post.