2g to 1g MAF questions.

[Model_Zero]

Yes I used the search button, but I didn't find anything. Okay, so I install a 2g MAF in my 1g. Now can I get 650cc injectors, or do I have to get the 550s? Also, im well aware that the car will run LEAN, and will need something to fix the a/f ratio. There is DSMlink, and eBay Motors: Apexi SAFC Super Air Flow Converter (item 180343934957 end time May-05-09 14:27:19 PDT)
.

MY real question is, if I do all this, can I go ahead upgrade my front mount, and get a 16g turbo, and just get a tune at like AMS, and skip the dSMlink or w/e. Will it fix the A/F ratio, and make it run smooth thanks!

 

[My90tsiawd]

A 2G MAF will read about 20% less air than your stock 1G MAF. 550 injectors will push about 20% more fuel so they compensate for each other. However i wouldn't do it without an SAFC to really tune your air/fuel ratio. Some people have done it without problems though.

 

[Model_Zero]

I understand that part, but I don't want 550s, Im looking to push more power in the long run, so If i get 650s, couldn't I still tune it and be fine? Next, can I skip the whole manual tuning, if I take it to get tuned by some like AMS?

 

[My90tsiawd]

If you want to put 650s right now you will need a tuning device like a SAFC because otherwise it will run super rich. I don't think a tuning device is in your plans for the next days so, if you do not want to end up buying 2 sets of injectors i'd stick with the 1G MAF until you get what you need for changing injectors. You can still get a 1G drop in K&N filter and use it on the 2G MAF later using a 1G K&N Filter to 2G MAF Adapter from dejon. That way you can buy a filter that you would be able to use in the long run.

 

[cyclonekid77]

so the 2g maf actually reads 20% LESS air? i still have alot to learn about injectors maf's

 

[My90tsiawd]

That's right it reads roughly 20% LESS air.

 

[cyclonekid77]

so by reading less air, the car will lean out the bigger injectors because it "thinks" the car is not getting as much air as what it really is?

 

[My90tsiawd]

It reads less air so if you don't change anything else it will run leaner. Bigger injectors will take care of it because with the same signal from the ECU it flows more fuel. The ECU "thinks" there is less air so it tries to shoot 20% less fuel from injectors that are 20% bigger.

 

[cyclonekid77]

ok, i understand now.

 

[Chris12398]

Im doing RC 550's, 2g MAF, with a Turbo XS RFL valve. Non-recirc. 18psi, with wideband. with or without AFC etc.. car runs the same. Pretty much a cheap mans tune. Dont bother with any other setup without AFC or alike. ie 550's and larger

To run perfect. Youd need 550's,2G MAF, some BOV for DSM, and a Fuel Pressure Regulator. If going 650's get a FPR, Walbro, and AFC or you wont be happy...Hope this helps

 

[toofast82]

Next, can I skip the whole manual tuning, if I take it to get tuned by some like AMS?

You do know AMS is in Illinois and you're in Virginia
You gonna drive your DSM there?WTF

 

[phantom_19]

I thought the 2g MAF can read more air being sucked in, then stock 1g MAF

 

[habitatguy187]

The 2gmaf can read more air but the hertz output signal is lower than a 1g maf, so it tells the ECU to add less fuel than the 1gmaf.

OP, you will need some sort of tuning device for 650s, I've been looking into this - http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/325002-lebeaux-technoligy-maft.html?highlight=maft - and believe that it will be a good route to take.

 

[tkelly27]

It can, but only because it reads less. For each hz sent to the computer, it has allowed 20% more air through the sensor. Same concept with hacking the 1g maf, you have blinded the maf to the presence of that much air. The 2g maf also has a bigger hole, which lets it flow more.

If you want 650's you will have to get a tuning device. There are chips, and an AFC, but you should really look into DSMap or link, if you're not a do it your selfer.

http://www.ds-map.net/

Its also fun to be involved in how it develops. For my own car, I would only even consider link when it gets speed density, but then again, I already do. For your car and your tuning abilities, link may be right up your alley.

The AFC and chip (some people don't even use the chip, just AFC) are a proven, simple combo. Much less powerful, but much less to screw up..

 

[InfiniteGSX]

I wanna ask a question about this... I believe its been answered, but in sooooo many words. 2g MAF without an AFC, can it be done and how? The 2g MAF flows 50% better then 1g. But reads negative 20%. Is there any way to comfensate for this safely without a AFC?

 

[habitatguy187]

Did you read this thread?

 

[InfiniteGSX]

Ofcourse, AFC AFC AFC. Bla bla bla. I'm not asking that. Asking if there is any other way to just manipulate for a 2g MAF on stock setup. Thats it. A simple "No" could be easier than "did you read this thread?"

 

[Brutal_r3drum]

i know a lot of ppl say this cant be done but as my car runs great with out an afc..... i have a 2g maf and wally 255 with an afrp... nothing else... not going to lie i am putting an afc in when i can get into the shop... just my experiance... it works

 

[InfiniteGSX]

I was about to put my 2g MAF on but locals said it wouldn't work right without a AFC to control it. I know all about it flows 50% better then 1g, but reads 20% less than what a 1g does and thats why you need an afc. I was just wondering if there was any way to boost that 20% up to read proper. I sometimes see that running 550's comfensate. But I don't understand how exactly. And wouldn't that only be masking the main issue.

I can kinda see it tho... -20% air, so ecu drops fuel down so this is why you put 550s in to comfensate for the loss... Which is what... putting the car right back where you started isn't it? Pretty much making a 2g maf run like a 1g, and 550's run like 450's. ?

 

[99rtguy]

the computer thinks its putting it back to stock, but you have to remember you are flowing more air, which is why you need something to control fuel and to see what your air fuel ratios are. just because the signal is different doesnt mean the actual air flow hasnt changed..

 

[joe sobo]

my only question is unless you modify the car, how does this help you? so if you use all the things listed above with a safc, can you turn the boost up for more h.p??

 

[habitatguy187]

Ofcourse, AFC AFC AFC. Bla bla bla. I'm not asking that. Asking if there is any other way to just manipulate for a 2g MAF on stock setup. Thats it. A simple "No" could be easier than "did you read this thread?"

Didn't mean to come off as a jerk, but your question was answered a couple times in this thread...

A 2G MAF will read about 20% less air than your stock 1G MAF. 550 injectors will push about 20% more fuel so they compensate for each other. However i wouldn't do it without an SAFC to really tune your air/fuel ratio. Some people have done it without problems though.

I do run this without an safc, and it is the cheap man's tune, some people have problems with the ecu advancing too much timing due to the ecu reading a lesser airflow htz and causing the car to knock, but I haven't had any problems running 20psi on a 14b and stock sidemount when it's 80* out, getting about 3 counts of knock.

my only question is unless you modify the car, how does this help you? so if you use all the things listed above with a safc, can you turn the boost up for more h.p??

Not without bigger injectors, otherwise you'll still hit fuel cut at the same airflow as with a 1g mas.

 

[jeffo]

The 2G MAS actually flows closer to 30% more airflow for the same Karman frquency as a 1G MAS:
http://www.qfrf.com/DSMChips/mas.jpg
A lot of people say 20%, because it roughly compensates for adding 550's, but that isn't exactly true. It is also leaning you out slightly, which is a good thing considering the rich factory AFR maps.
But, the biggest problem a lot of people forget about is that the ECU also uses the airflow Hz to decide which maps to use. So, when you remove almost 30% of the airflow with a 2G MAS the ECU is way off on the timing. When you are at 15psi, the ECU thinks you are only at 5-6 lbs of boost, so it uses maps that are way too aggressive for 15psi. The result is that you have to add a ton more fuel to keep the knock under control, and the amount of boost you can run on pumpgas is very limited by the knock.
That is why the only *right* way to run a 2G MAS is with a chip or DSMLink. Every piggyback out there, including an AFC, VPC, MAFT, or even the fancy Lebeaux unit, work by reducing the airflow signal to the ECU, which screws up your maps. That is fine with racegas, where the extra timing helps, but it is a huge limiting factor if you are trying to run a lot of boost on pumpgas.

 

[99rtguy]

jeffo, your post makes me wanna cry.. i need more airflow, cheap

 

[jeffo]

2G and 3G MAS's are cheap. The 2G-type MAS was use on a bunch of cars, including 3000GT's, Stealths, and Diamantes. The good #482 3G MAS was used on the 2003+ Eclipse GTS and the Montero Sports with the 3.5 liter engine, so there are tons of them for cheap in junkyards. You just need the right chip to compensate properly, and an EPROM ECU of course.
keydiver